Slitherine

Had an interesting one come up at the IWF.

Enemy Scythed chariots. Shot to frag. Charged in flank and broke.

Do they turn and flee? The umpire ruled they are broken and flee like anyone else and then will come off in JAP, etc.

But the player suggested that since the scythe chariots

�� Can only make moves as permitted in the ‘charges’ or ‘advances’ sections of the
simple and complex move chart

this prohibited them from turning when broken to flee. Thus he felt they should remain in plan until removed in the JAP phase.

On that rationale they could not be removed as they are only removed when in front edge contact with unbroken enemy they fought this turn. So chargers were stuck.

The advances bit though does include any other forwards move. Since rout, not move, turns it, it then makes a move forward advancing away from the enemy.

Depends who made the silly argument which way I would rule.

philqw78 wrote: Depends who made the silly argument which way I would rule.

Well I had no scythed chariots so you can factor out that bias.

From recollection I think the rationale ended up:

- the reference on page 120 to scythed chariots 'making moves as permitted in the "charges" or "advances" sections of the simple and complex move chart' on page 42 applies only to 'voluntary moves' initiated by the player

- routs are not 'voluntary moves' initiated by the player in accordance with the simple & complex moves table on page 42. Rather, they are made in accordance with the prescriptive rules specified on page 100-101.

I think that makes a lot more sense than "I can't rout because I'm not allowed to turn".

As a coda to this tail of woe:

The owner of the routing BG suggested that if the scythed chariots did indeed have to rout, this would always make them quite risky to use in his army. i.e. he wouldn't be able to aggressively run the rest of his army close behind the aforementioned scythed chariots (for fear of them routing back through friends). I responded that this seemed to be a reasonably "historical" effect.

zoltan wrote:As a coda to this tail of woe:

The owner of the routing BG suggested that if the scythed chariots did indeed have to rout, this would always make them quite risky to use in his army. i.e. he wouldn't be able to aggressively run the rest of his army close behind the aforementioned scythed chariots (for fear of them routing back through friends). I responded that this seemed to be a reasonably "historical" effect.

Indeed - Magnesia for example.

In a divergent vein

I have never run or seen scythed chariots run. I understand the basic rules; but my questions is:


Do they work?

John

RBS replied to a recent post on Scythed chariots:

"Scythed chariots breaking does not cause attrition points, but does cause a cohesion test. Having them removed after combat doesn't.

Having your scythed chariots break near you would be a pretty scary thing as they would career all over the place and might scythe you.

(e.g. Battle of Magnesia)"

seems they should break & flee like any BG.

original thread:
viewtopic.php?t=19339

recharge wrote:In a divergent vein

I have never run or seen scythed chariots run. I understand the basic rules; but my questions is:


Do they work?

John

IMHO they are good but the issue is that they are best used ahistorically.

- deployed early or flank marched
- set up in ambush behind a gentle hill to protect a hanging flank
- withold commitment until they can be used to tip the scales (ie into enemy that are already disrupted and/or engaged)
- run up with other friendly mounted as a concerted mounted attack.

CvCvCvCv SChSCh ElEl Foot Foot
CvCvCvCv

I've never seen them break before they were removed from play for being on contact with enemy in the JAP.

recharge wrote:In a divergent vein

I have never run or seen scythed chariots run. I understand the basic rules; but my questions is:


Do they work?

John

I've found they have a certain amount of psychological effect in terms of opposing players not being sure how dangerous they are and hence going out of there way to avoid them. IN one game they essentially faced down a BG of elephants that would otherwise have gotten into the flank of my main mounted force. Also, used as a BG of 2 with a general attached as necessary, they can work fairly well as a fairly cheap additional BG used in conjunction with your other mounted. Unfortunately, they still don't seem to be enough to turn the Late Achaemenids into a really formidable tournament army .

Chris

The main reason i pointed this out was perhaps getting a touch more clarity for 2.0.

I think the esteeemed Umpire ruled correctly.

I agree they should rout as normal and they are indeed almost as dangerous to other friends as they would be to an enemy.
I managed to use a BG of 2 in our last game to keep Blatherguts lancers in place till close to the end of the game when my Gallic cav took them on, unfortunately trying to wheel them into a nice flank charge takes a few turns.

deadtorius wrote:I agree they should rout as normal and they are indeed almost as dangerous to other friends as they would be to an enemy.
I managed to use a BG of 2 in our last game to keep Blatherguts lancers in place till close to the end of the game when my Gallic cav took them on, unfortunately trying to wheel them into a nice flank charge takes a few turns.

Actually superior lancers aren't so bad to meet them.

3 dice no re-rolls vs 2 w/re-rolls. Everyone on evens.

well it was superior Galatian cav out front of the lancers with the scythies off on the flank trying to move up and wheel into a nice flank charge position, almost didnt need them in the end as the cav was taking care of the lancers on their own. Not a good day for Romaes Pergamene allies to say the least.

hazelbark wrote:Had an interesting one come up at the IWF.

Enemy Scythed chariots. Shot to frag. Charged in flank and broke.

Do they turn and flee? The umpire ruled they are broken and flee like anyone else and then will come off in JAP, etc.

But the player suggested that since the scythe chariots

�� Can only make moves as permitted in the ‘charges’ or ‘advances’ sections of the
simple and complex move chart

this prohibited them from turning when broken to flee. Thus he felt they should remain in plan until removed in the JAP phase.

An interesting situation. I was going to comment that they could make a simple move rout by wheeling forwards - of course there are circumstances when that wouldn't help.

I then looked at the "initial rout" section of the combat rules, and I think there is something missing. It says that as part of the BG's initial rout "it routs directly away from the enemy" Nowhere does it specifically how it does that. It doesn't usually matter as routers are (temporarily at least) useless to their own side.

Logic suggests it first turns away from the enemy (either 90 degrees or 180 degrees), wheels parallel if need be, then makes the remainder of any move in a straight line. So I think the missing line is "first turns away from the enemy charging shooting or in close combat with it".

It's a difficult case to rule as an umpire, as the player is correct according to the rules, and has designed an army around that, but it feels wrong.

I think that the statement that it routs directly away is sufficient to explain how this works. If you start getting into trying to apply the rules that pertain to voluntary moves in these circumstances, the logical position is that very few BGs can actually make a rout move because (except for Lights) they are not permitted to move having turned 180 degrees. That would clearly be a ridiculous interpretation.

There are a lot of troop types that cannot turn and move in a sinlge move but do so when routing, so arguing that the chariots are not allowed to turn seems to be clutching at straws.

ottomanmjm wrote:There are a lot of troop types that cannot turn and move in a sinlge move but do so when routing, so arguing that the chariots are not allowed to turn seems to be clutching at straws.

They cannot tuurn and move in the movement phase (e.g. undrilled heavy foot) but they can do so (it's implied) as an initial rout move. The problem for scythed chariots is that their rules specifically say they can't do this - no turn and move allowed at any time.

grahambriggs wrote:

ottomanmjm wrote:There are a lot of troop types that cannot turn and move in a sinlge move but do so when routing, so arguing that the chariots are not allowed to turn seems to be clutching at straws.

They cannot tuurn and move in the movement phase (e.g. undrilled heavy foot) but they can do so (it's implied) as an initial rout move. The problem for scythed chariots is that their rules specifically say they can't do this - no turn and move allowed at any time.

So in V2 (and maybe the V1 FAQ), the wording needs to be clarified a bit to say that the normal restrictions are for voluntary movement.

As a related question, if a scythed chariot charges without orders, is it allowed to drop back a base to avoid interpenetrating friends? Alternatively, would it not have to check if it had to interpenetrate friends in order to charge enemy skirmishers in this situation while other BGs subject to charging without orders would have to do so since they may drop back to avoid interpenetrating? Inquiring minds want to know .

Chris