Slitherine

lascar wrote:I'll take you up on your offer. The Portuguese sounds like a real challenge to play but I'll bow to your superior expertise on this this one and go for the Castilians instead.

Praeter wrote:I'll give it a go - I see you mention the design would work well for aljubarrota as well - the standard scenario for this battle doesn't seem at all right to me. Has anyone done another version?

Praeter wrote:I'll give it a go - I see you mention the design would work well for aljubarrota as well - the standard scenario for this battle doesn't seem at all right to me. Has anyone done another version?

stockwellpete wrote:

Praeter wrote:I'll give it a go - I see you mention the design would work well for aljubarrota as well - the standard scenario for this battle doesn't seem at all right to me. Has anyone done another version?

Aljubarrota is one of mine, Praeter. What did you feel was wrong with it? It is a few years since I made it now so I cannot remember exactly which sources I used but I do remember this Wikipedia link which has useful maps and diagrams . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aljubarrota

Praeter wrote:I felt that the strong Portuguese position seemed right - with ditches replicating the defensive works. But what didn't work for me was the lack of Castilian Jinetes that went in the first charge with the knights. Also from what I've read about the battle the slope actually favoured the Castilians as the Portuguese were forced to turn around their position - also the Portuguese had archers placed on the flanks and the Castilians were hit with flanking fire. This is the impression I got from Sumption's Divided Houses anyway. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hundred-Years-W ... 571240127/

stockwellpete wrote: I have found this as well . . . http://www.fundacao-aljubarrota.pt/?idc=21 I know that I didn't use this for the battle; I think it was probably the Wikipedia link combined with Froissart. I think the Portuguese were on the hill so the Castilians did have to fight uphill. The new link suggests that the first cavalry charge was mainly French and that Spanish cavalry subsequently dismounted because of the difficult terrain. I have got the Portuguese crossbowmen giving the flanking fire with the English archers in the centre - perhaps I got that from Froissart? I can't actually remember now.

Praeter wrote: I think the link to the battlefield museum site provides some fairly good information - definitely I have the impression of a battle where the Castilians have archers shooting at them from the sides from the description there and being forced to advance over a small front over difficult ground (much like at Agincourt actually) - and also I don't think they're going uphill - that was the original position - but the Castilians marched to come out at the back of that position so it sounds like they're on top of the same plateau as the Portuguese. I haven't read the Monteiro article as it's behind a paywall.

Their position here was less strong, since the Castilians would be attacking down a gentle slope, but the Portuguese had time to strengthen it by building primitive field fortifications in front of their line: a line of stakes and brushwood and a series of deep trenches. John of Trastámara sent the chronicler Ayala forward as a parlementaire with an escort of men-at-arms. Ayala’s formal task was to demand that John of Avis should avoid spilling blood in such an unworthy cause, but the real object of his mission was to reconnoitre the Portuguese lines and report back to the King and his advisers. Ayala quickly formed the view that it would madness to attack the enemy’s positions that day. It was now late afternoon. The Castilians were exhausted. They had not eaten since morning. Their cavalry were on their own, since the bowmen and infantry were still struggling through the valley with the supply train and had not yet reached the main road. The Portuguese line was too narrow to enable the whole Castilian army to engage it and a flanking action was impossible because of the creek on either side. A direct frontal assault on the Portuguese centre would require the Castilian centre to run the gauntlet of the two blocks of English and Portuguese bowmen on the wings.

Sumption, Jonathan (2011-06-02). Hundred Years War Vol 3: Divided Houses: v. 3 (Kindle Locations 12987-12995). Faber & Faber. Kindle Edition.

Praeter wrote:I'm going on mostly what's in Sumption: . . .

I think key factors would be the narrow battlefield, the defensive trenches/pits, the archers on the flanks and the exhaustion of the Castilians - perhaps that could be reflected in decreasing some of their quality to Poor?