Slitherine

There have been lots of recent comments about the lack of manual/wiki etc.

Lets start one!

1) Most importantly, it would be fun to generate! General tips, cool tactics illustrated with screenshots, how to play each specific army......
2) A wiki would be more use than a pdf manual. One of the reason the current help is less useful is because Slitherine are adding new features all the time, and I hope continue to do so, since this is one advantage of a PC game over tabletop! (And I personally would rather they worked on this than a manual that we can do just as well.....)
3) Great collaborative project that would take little extra work from any one of us. We already post and AARs to this forum - a wiki is a better way to organise this work

From the previous posts, I have noted the following have mentioned they would be interested in contributing:
batesmotel
petergarnett
TheGraymouser
morbio
Old_Warrior

Are you guys up for it? Any other volunteers to get us going?

Once we have enough recruits, we'll cut to a separate thread/sticky for coordination.

First decision will be what platform. I am familiar with wikispaces (because its free and easy!), but there are alternatives - e.g. we add to www.madaxeman.com, or put it somewhere Slitherine can help host.

It might just be my cynical nature, but I'm getting red warning flags popping up all over the place just by reading this.

First of all, it's a gargantuan project.
Not only will the manual (for lack of a better term) have to be redesigned, rewritten, illustrated and so on.
Someone will also need to keep it up to date....Constantly. Otherwise people will begin to complain that the Wiki isn't updated often enough, instead of complaining that there isn't a manual in the first place.
This also means that every undocumented feature that will henceforth be put into the game will have to be discovered, tested and documented.
This means finding out e.g. what the infamous 'losing badly' rule means in game-terms.
(This btw. is defined quite clearly in the TT rules. God knows why they didn't just copy the definition instead of this 'losing badly' nonsense)
Bottom line is that this won't be just 3 months of hard work, and then sitting back to enjoy the fruits of ones labor.

Second, there's a copyright issue.
I would make *really* sure that everything is okay with Slitherine before publicly posting the rules to a PC game on a non-company website.
I'd also be very, very sure that Slitherine/HexWar doesn't suddenly end up owning the rights to said Wiki, and ending up publishing it.
Same thing goes for artwork. Don't even think of using any of Ospreys fabulous artwork to illustrate the Wiki without getting written consent.
And I certainly wouldn't use a site hosted by any of the involved companies for the above reasons.

Third.......
It annoys me that it's actually necessary.
I agree that a Wiki is easier to update than a PDF, but I'm also assuming that's the reason the manual was released as a help-file. So that each expansion could field updated pages for the help-file.
Instead we get vaguely worded prose that gets updated as and when somebody apparently feels like it.
Suffice it to say that the manual as it is now is somewhere between ludicrous and downright deplorable.
And I find it utterly sad that it has come to players grouping together to actually get things done right.

So.....
If this project gets underway, I'll happily contribute as and when I actually have something intelligent to say (so don't hold your breath ).
But as for being actively involved, and putting my name on something like this?
Not a chance.

Best of luck gentlemen

Lars

Good points Lars - not so Cheerfully Insane after all, you should change your log-in to Very Prudent and Realistic!

Copyright issues
Lets get Slitherine input on the copyright issue.
I wasn't imagining artwork - screenshots was as advanced as I'd got. I can't see why they would object to screenshots - these are posted all over the web and are great marketing for them. Agree if screenshots/videos of games with talkovers aren't allowed a wiki is a non-starter.
Again I can't see rules and tips being a problem on public access. Their hexwar site is public access and it's not like you can play the game by reading the rules.
Personally I'd be delighted if Slitherine/Hexwar took it over - no financial value for contributors anyway, only honour and glory!

Gargantuan project
Yes.....it is big.....but only as big as we want to make it.
For example, I imagined my contribution as organised tips and strategies, with tutorial covering all major mechanics, not as a bible to answer every possible detailed point in the rules. If someone else wants to contribute this detail - e.g. on "losing badly" ...good on them!
I am worried about maintenance....it is too easy for wikis to fall into neglect. That is why I thought of alternatives to a free wiki - Hexwar, Slitherine or Madaxeman hosted would ensure someone had a long term commercial interest in keeping it alive....
I'm not worried about updating for new rules....it would take 30min to an hour to add tips for a new feature like the upcoming terrain selection, I expect there would be a race to add a new section. After all, we discuss the new feature on the forum, why not spend the same time on the wiki?

Slitherine should do this themselves
I agree 100% with this. Slitherine have done a great job on the game, but that is only part of the value to customers - they should think of a vibrant wiki as part of their product. They should be investing more to build the community...for example, the feature to add comment to a multiplayer challenge so you can mention what pace/timezone/enemy you are looking for.

But they aren't doing this themselves, so we can choose what we think:
a) Feel utterly sad
b) Have fun doing it ourselves

Thanks for your offer to contribute content if this gets off the ground!

Lars has hit the big ones - are there any other "show-stoppers" out there?

How much space will the wiki have available? Lots of graphics and videos will eat up storage space at a rapid rate.

Who controls content? I have seen some sites get hit by people who are just talking a bunch of junk, or actually advertising products/services. Some posts were completely off the wall and vulger. Control is a key issue.

Site design - who is heading up the layout and look of the site?

Before you start - you really need to map all this out.

I agree with CheerfullyInsane on one aspect - copyright - you need to get Slitherine/Osprey/Hexwar to sign off on this and maybe even sponsor the site.

As far as size of the project - make a plan and stick to it. Take it one step at a time and you will get there. Once you get the logistics in place, the rest of it is just plain fun!

The other thing that is great about your idea that I like - you can put on the site what you want the way you want. A lot better than posting one wish list after another to the forum. Taking control of your own dreams is empowering. I like Cheerfully Insane but, we have a saying in the U.S. Army; never let anyone limit your potential.

Best of luck!

I might get in and do some community work for this. you can also use my Requests thread any of my AARs (i think that the battle school one would be especially useful regarding the strategical/tactical playing tips).

Also, you should contact Slitherine and/or Hexwars regarding full access to their patching documentation (full release notes, for all patches, not only for those available on net).

Cothyso hit the nail on the head -- the developers would have to commit some time to fully explain all new features and how they work for a Wiki project to have real value. There are just too many grey areas where even experienced players are not sure how the game works.

That said, I'd be willing to help out as well.

Deeter

Copyright.

davouthojo wrote:Again I can't see rules and tips being a problem on public access. Their hexwar site is public access and it's not like you can play the game by reading the rules.

True, but the HexWar site is owned (and hence the content is controlled by) the company in question.
I'm not sure they'll allow the thing to be moved somewhere out of their control.

I can't see why they would object to screenshots - these are posted all over the web and are great marketing for them.

I'd agree when it comes to screenies.
My point was that when the Wiki at some point gets 'fleshed out', there'll be a tendency to include artwork.
Cover art for the front page, maybe a pic from an Osprey book for each army description, that sort of thing.

Yes.....it is big.....but only as big as we want to make it.
For example, I imagined my contribution as organised tips and strategies, with tutorial covering all major mechanics, not as a bible to answer every possible detailed point in the rules. If someone else wants to contribute this detail - e.g. on "losing badly" ...good on them!

Right
These things tend to grow exponentially. As an example, 3-4 months ago I had a talk with little and I decided to write a small post on the hows and whys of multi-player for the newbies, using little for feedback, ideas and so on.....
Currently that 'small post' is about 3 pages long (not counting screenshots), and I'm still not happy with it. Bloody thing has become a beast that cannot be fed *LOL*
The problem is that you decide to write about X. Then you find out that to get to X, you also have to write about Y, because that influences X.
Then you find that Y is actually based on Z and T, so you have to cover those first. After doing that, you figure out that the X you originally wrote about has referrals to the T that in turn influenced the Z......Etc. ad nauseum
So it's a big job, make no mistake.

Slitherine should do this themselves
I agree 100% with this. Slitherine have done a great job on the game, but that is only part of the value to customers - they should think of a vibrant wiki as part of their product.

Personally I'd be delighted if Slitherine/Hexwar took it over - no financial value for contributors anyway, only honour and glory!

This is where I go from being doubtful to being downright against.
First of all, Slitherine/HexWar has showed no signs of being interested in revamping the manual.
So if by some miracle you get a fully-working, cross-referenced Wiki up and running, and then hand it over to them, what makes you think they'll show any interest in doing the up-keep on that?
Again, maybe I'm just cynical, but I see no reason to think that they'll do a better job on a Wiki than they're currently doing on the help-file.

Which is also why I'm leery of using a server backed by any of the involved companies.
If I'm to put in hours of sparetime doing work that they really should've done themselves, I want to make damn sure that I own the rights to said work.
I don't expect Slitherine to suddenly knock on my door and wanting to buy the rights to any of it, I'm not that naive *g*.
But nor am I liable to work at increasing the value of a product without getting some sort of credit for it.

not so Cheerfully Insane after all, you should change your log-in to Very Prudent and Realistic

Hmmmmmm.....
Doesn't have quite the same ring to it

CharlesRobinson wrote:I like Cheerfully Insane but, we have a saying in the U.S. Army; never let anyone limit your potential.

Granted, it helps when you have a M2 Bradley backing you up to dissuade possible nay-sayers
But I'm not trying to shoot anyones ideas down.
Merely pointing out that this sort of project is *BIG*, and that there are obstacles in the way.
There are times when the line between 'pursuing your dream' and 'suicidal insanity' becomes razor-thin.

Lars

My two cents on Cynisism: I doudt Slitherine would go thru the trouble of explaining in detail the deep dark secrets of new features (or old ones) to a small group, just so they then could disseminate that to the masses! If they went thru the effort to document they could just slap it in the web based manual as is...

perhaps a a true manual isnt needed for as Cheerfull pointed out once you explain x, all of a sudden y needs to be explained and then z etc

Maybe a really good after action report(s) that explain in detail the hows and why's thing are happening with links to the real manual for further study ie POA charts CMT charts etc....
I mean why recreate work that has aleady been done (and copyrighted)
AAR of course leads to tactical insites etc , articles , etc etc

Agree with most of the above points - and checked out that linking into forum AARs works fine. Agree on the principle of not duplicating work!

The only way we'll work things out is to start, so I've done a couple of hours work on this to get thoughts.

www.fog-pc-wiki.wikispaces.com

Go and paste some of your content!

We can continue the discussion here on how it should work best for the community

As long as we're not including big chunks of the tabletop rules that make them uncessary then I think we'd be happy to help with the info. I'd need to check the developer was willing to answer questions as it could be pretty time consuming but the basic idea is good. There could definitely be better documentation but things are changing so fast we don't have the resources to create something that stays up to date so it feels liek a waste of effort to even start it.

OK, I think this is starting to be worth input and content from anyone willing!

www.fog-pc-wiki.wikispaces.com

Go and paste some of your content!

We can continue the discussion here on how it should work best for the community

Looking good....

This wiki is superb. The tactical discussions are spot on and even I have learned a few things that I didnt know or weren't sure about, and I've been playing this game from day 1!

Well worth a read if you haven't done so already.


Big thumbs up chris!

This is absolutely outstanding! Thanks very much for your efforts. Frankly I didn't think the Wiki would get off the ground. I've already learned from it how to interpret those cryptic pre-combat displays....

Tim

Amazing, good job Chris!

This is really a cool repository of FoG knowledge, a usefull place to direct new and intermediate players with some nuances explained for old hands too. Great job! Couple of things: no pictures appear in the second on luring pursuers and it would be nice to be able to enlarge pictures to better view them.

Deeter

Thanks for the encouraging feedback!

I am running out of ideas/time.....please go in and add some content - particularly for specific armies, you guys know some of these armies like the back of your hand - units selection and how to win with those armies, an easy way to spend a spare 10 minutes (on your iphone...)

It looks great! An excellent idea. I will visit the Wiki often.

It is brilliant! Well done!

Great site, well done and thanks.