Slitherine

i'd like to recreate the battle of Grunwald-Tannenberg, of which there is an interesting scenario in the FOG-TT forum
as i don't know the TT rules, can anyone put in relation the TT stands with the PC battlegroupsfor me...and there are differences between HF LF MF LC C HC?
thanks

omarquatar wrote:i'd like to recreate the battle of Grunwald-Tannenberg, of which there is an interesting scenario in the FOG-TT forum
as i don't know the TT rules, can anyone put in relation the TT stands with the PC battlegroupsfor me...and there are differences between HF LF MF LC C HC?
thanks

Not sure there's a 'standard' exchange rate, but looking at the lists of the PC and TT version of S&S, there seems to be a 1:2 rate.
That is, 1 BG (pc) for 2 bases TT.
With the exception of pike BGs where the rate is 1:3 for some reason.
Might be a balance question since the BGs are move maneuverable in PC than in TT.
But I've only ever read the TT rules (borrowed from a friend) and never played it, so I couldn't say for sure.

The troop-types are AFAIK exactly the same.

Lars

Dont know if this helps but the TT assumes each base is aprox. 250 men

Also BG's in the TT follow a certain structure regarding how many bases per BG
in general
cavalry 4-6 bases
spears/pikes 8-12
medium archers 6-8
lights usually 4-6
some special units might only get two bases for example Triari
BG's alway start w an even # of bases , excpetions being mixed BG's that can have 9 or 12

TheGrayMouser wrote:Dont know if this helps but the TT assumes each base is aprox. 250 men

Also BG's in the TT follow a certain structure regarding how many bases per BG
in general
cavalry 4-6 bases
spears/pikes 8-12
medium archers 6-8
lights usually 4-6
some special units might only get two bases for example Triari
BG's alway start w an even # of bases , excpetions being mixed BG's that can have 9 or 12

so it seems that there isn't a fixed ratio...as the TT scenario troops are divisible /6 maybe a good choice could be to make 6 stands = 1 pcBG..however this would make Bgs 1500 men strong instead of the standard 300...but numbers in this game are irrelevant...hmmm, i'm rather confused

I think you have the conversion backwards
A table top battle group of say knights might have 4 bases, most games on the table top will only have 12-15 BG's per side (as opposed to 40-60 plus on the PC)

So maybe just start at a one to one conversion of TT BASES to PC Bg's
Then you can tweak it for balance

I asume you have seen the TT oob on that forum?

I dont believe there was a direct "scientific" conversion made for the PC game

TheGrayMouser wrote:I think you have the conversion backwards
A table top battle group of say knights might have 4 bases, most games on the table top will only have 12-15 BG's per side (as opposed to 40-60 plus on the PC)

So maybe just start at a one to one conversion of TT BASES to PC Bg's
Then you can tweak it for balance

I asume you have seen the TT oob on that forum?

the scenario(yes it is in the FOG TT forum) is rather big, the teutonic knights have more than 130 stands + 5 artillery (?) the polish-lituanian are bigger...too many for a 1:1 conversion, too few for 1:6...maybe 1:3 is right

The digital game handles combat in general as if each BG in the game was the equivalent of 4 stands in the TT in general in a 2x2 formation. But the missile ranges in the game scale better to a strength of about 300 men per BG, based on the amount of frontage that this many men would occupy in a normal formation, so that gives a scale of about 1 digital BG to 1 stand in the TT rules. The DAG army lists are generally done on the basis of halving the amounts of troops allowed in the TT list for evertyhing except pikes which are divided by three instead to represent the fact the pike BGs fight as if they were 2 ranks by 4 deep in some ways.

Chris

Oye you are correct, that TT scenario appears to be xtraordinarily large! Also its not clear if the poster is using stands or bg's intermingled in his OOB......

Well, the cap on BG's in the PC is 2,500 (50 by 50 one unit per hex) so you could go crazy with a monster scenario!

You could convert the other way to I suppose, in the TT oob there are 12 bases of Order Knights, you could assume 4 bases per BG and just convert to 3 units for the PC, for example.....

Regardless how you do it, look foward to the completed scenario (now we just need snow and ice graphics to complete the emmersion)

TheGrayMouser wrote:
Regardless how you do it, look foward to the completed scenario (now we just need snow and ice graphics to complete the emmersion)

yes it would be nice...and villages and fortified camps ...and...and ...and

12 bases of military order knights would work out to 3 battle groups of 4 bases each, so you could do 3 military order units on the PC.
Main problem is that on the TT the unit sizes will vary as to how many bases you can put in each battle group. Ancient spanish battle groups can have up to 12 bases on the TT IIRC, so would you place 3 PC groups as the equivalent of a single TT battle group?
Might seem like lots of numbers but like I said it all depends on how big the battle groups are, then you divide the total number of bases into individual battle groups might not seem quite so monstrous then. I guess the poster did not list any kind of command structure in their OOB? some players will list a commander then show the army composition. For example:
commander A Field Commander
8 Pikes Average protected Pike Pike
4 Cataphracts Superior Heavy Arm, lance swordsman
6 Cretan Archers, Superior Light Infantry Bow
8 Citizen Militia Poor Protected Offensive spear.

Thats 26 bases of figs, might look like a lot for the PC but on the TT that is one unit of pikes, 2X4, 1 unit of Catphracts 4 bases, 1 unit of Cretans 6 bases and 1 unit of militia 8 bases of Offensive spear. If you took 1 pike unit, 1 Cataphract, 1 Cretan archer and 1 poor Offensive spear, you have pretty much made a similar command.

Not sure there is a true conversion of TT list to the PC list, the PC DAG lists are a lot bigger than the TT army books would let you have.
Hope I helped to clear up this for you a bit

thanks to all, i'm going to do it