Slitherine

These questions came out of a play-test today of the Battle of Bosworth Field (1485) scenario that I am working on . . .

i) the mounted knight unit containing Henry Tudor was surrounded and eventually routed by Yorkist forces. The unit was unable to rout off in the normal way and its remaining strength points came up on the screen and then it disappeared. It was also designated a leader unit, but there was no "aargh" sound to indicate that the leader had actually been killed. This raised some difficulties because in the scenario the death of either Richard III or Henry Tudor signals the end of the game. Another leader unit, Lord Stanley, was also routed but his unit was able to make its way to the edge of the board unmolested so my assumption was that he was still alive.

So the first question is - when a unit is surrounded and cannot rout off the board and it disappears, what has actually happened? I have always assumed that the unit is wiped out and therefore any leader with that unit is also killed. Is that correct? If so, shouldn't there be an "aargh" sound?

The second question is - do routing leaders in units that are able to make their way to the edge of the board still exercise a command radius and help units with their morale tests?

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.

Well, a routed unit that can't retreat is still 'only' counted as routed for break-point (and hence winning) purposes.
And since there are no points awarded for killing leaders, the point is rather moot.
The only reason (as far as I know) for the 'aargh' is to call attention to the fact that the leader is no longer with the unit.
If the unit itself disappears, there's little need to point out that the leader has left the unit.
Something as specific as a game-win due to killing a specific unit isn't in the realm of FoG...Least not at present.
You'll need a house-rule to simulate that one.

As for what actually happens to the unit.....I dunno.
Presumably they're captured, since killing each and every one of them would be rather time-consuming in the middle of a battle (not to mention a wee bit grisly).
When it comes to a WotR situation they'd probably be killed yes, but again that's a specific situation for a specific scenario.
FoG is somewhat more abstract than that. I'm not even sure that the number of men lost in a battle actually means they're killed.
Even with medieval medicine (or perhaps lack of same) one would imagine that at least a few of them pull through, and manage to hobble through life with a few less appendages than one would ordinarily think were needed.
Hell, given a little exquisite work with a mace and a dagger, you could have a guy with a limp and an amusingly lopsided face......
Prime candidate for a court jester

As for leaders being active when with a routing unit....I'd assume so.
I've never checked the detailed display to see if a rallied unit got the commander-modifier, but there's nothing in the rules to say they won't be active, at least for rallying purposes. Whether or not it is cost-effective to have your disrupted unit follow the broken commander-unit to the board-edge is perhaps another matter.

Lars

Cheers Lars - the way I have decided to deal with it for the Bosworth scenario is to say that if either leader is killed, or if their unit is routed off the map or completely "destroyed" then the battle is over. Both Richard and Henry would not have survived long after being captured, I'm sure.

The other thing is though - if a leader is killed and you get the "aargh" noise then all the "white hands" immediately shoot up on the surrounding units to indicate they are out of command radius. That doesn't seem to happen if a leader unit is "wiped out" (after being surrounded, say). Isn't that a bit anomalous?

I take your point about distinguishing between casualties and deaths. The result display at the end uses the word "casualties" not "killed".

I think you are right about routed leaders still exercising their command radius while they are routing. Do you think they should though?

I think this is another of the famous FoG "overlooks".. It happened to me a few times, and I think I might have rised a question about it and/or added it to the FoG requests thread..

In any way, a routed leader should definitely lose his command capacity, the same way a killed one does.

cothyso wrote:In any way, a routed leader should definitely lose his command capacity, the same way a killed one does.

Oh, I don't know.
There's a big difference between the commander and the commander-unit. So that even if the unit routs that doesn't necessarily mean that the leader is fleeing, merely that he's going with the unit trying to rally them. That shouldn't mean he can't influence other troops in the vicinity. For rallying purposes that is.
I quite agree that he shouldn't be able to influence combat. But as far as I remember broken units no longer influence combat, and presumably this goes for leader modifiers too.
I distinctly remember forgetting something abut that....

stockwellpete wrote:The other thing is though - if a leader is killed and you get the "aargh" noise then all the "white hands" immediately shoot up on the surrounding units to indicate they are out of command radius. That doesn't seem to happen if a leader unit is "wiped out" (after being surrounded, say). Isn't that a bit anomalous?

You sure about that?
Again, I haven't outright looked for it, but being out of command means being out of command, no matter what the reason.
I suspect that it does actually happen, just that if your leader is surrounded there are rarely any friendly units around.
If not, that's definitely a bug.

Lars

well now, a leader may rout the same as any other soldier on the battlefield (Darius for a quick example). And even if only his unit would have been routed, a leader with a broken unit (to be read a routed unit/no unit anymore/only a few soldiers with him) would have no way to force routed soldiers to turn back and fight (Caesar for another quick example) and might end up killed by them as well too..

But that is only history. From gameplay point of view, there's no logic to still have any sort of influence (command, support, etc) from a unit which was routed.

cothyso wrote:(snip....)
But that is only history. From gameplay point of view, there's no logic to still have any sort of influence (command, support, etc) from a unit which was routed.

No, not from a unit.
But the way I see it is that the commanders unit and the commander are two different things.
Think of it as a standard unit that has the commander attached to it. AFAIK the TT rules have a separate commander-stand that can be attached/detached during play to specific units.
While the PC version doesn't allow this, surely it doesn't mean that a commander is stuck doing whatever the routed unit is doing.
If a routed unit meant total loss of command for the leader with it, that would mean the unit itself would no longer have the +1 for rallying that applies for having the leader in the unit in the first place.
Given that a commanders rallying-bonus only applies to adjacent/same-hex units, it's not that big of a stretch.

As an aside, I quite agree that leaders risked getting killed if they tried to stop a rout. Makes sense too.
Observing a group of 200 fleeing troopers wielding sharp, metal implements and then deciding to stand in front of them going "Halt!", is probably a decision you'll regret for the rest of what is soon to become a severely truncated military career

Lars

Commanders are seperate units on the TT and only risk death if they fight in the front rank in melee. If they are attached to a unit that routs, they move with the unit for that turn and are then free to move away. If they wish to rally a routed unit, commanders must touch the unit. If they wish to bolster a unit from fragged to disrupted, etc. they only need to be in range. The only time they lose their command range is when they fight in the front rank.

On the PC, I generally assume a leader is killed (barring the little helmet going to heaven) when the unit he is with is destroyed.

Deeter

deeter wrote:Commanders are seperate units on the TT and only risk death if they fight in the front rank in melee. If they are attached to a unit that routs, they move with the unit for that turn and are then free to move away. If they wish to rally a routed unit, commanders must touch the unit. If they wish to bolster a unit from fragged to disrupted, etc. they only need to be in range. The only time they lose their command range is when they fight in the front rank.

On the PC, I generally assume a leader is killed (barring the little helmet going to heaven) when the unit he is with is destroyed.

Deeter

Ha ha , I never even considered that, soul flittering its way up to the heavens(kind of like when Tom the cat got clobbered by Jerry in those old fanatastically violent and funny cartoons)

I would like to think someday down the road leaders can be treated as seperate entities in this game, attached and detached to different units during gameplay... Would give them a little more flavour and uniqueness methinks.