Slitherine

One thing I find odd in the game is that units can´t be upgraded if they are close to enemy units. We are talking of Corps size units, it seems unrealistic that you have to retreat an entire corps from frontline for 40 days (1 turn for retreating, another one for upgrading). It is nice touch for a Battalion/regiment size game, but for the scale of this game it is not reasonable. I think units should be allowed to upgrade in front line, maybe lowering their affectiveness 10 points instead of 5 to balance, but it will be also smoother from the game mechanics point of view. I hope this is considered for GS v.2.0

The reality is that requipping would have been done away from the from on on a sub unit level and then merged back in to the formation. I think the level of abstraction works and adds another layer to the strategy.

iainmcneil wrote:The reality is that requipping would have been done away from the from on on a sub unit level and then merged back in to the formation. I think the level of abstraction works and adds another layer to the strategy.

That is why I say it would be nice in a Battalion/regiment size game. In a Corps size game it seems a bit ackward to me.

Aryaman wrote:

iainmcneil wrote:The reality is that requipping would have been done away from the from on on a sub unit level and then merged back in to the formation. I think the level of abstraction works and adds another layer to the strategy.

That is why I say it would be nice in a Battalion/regiment size game. In a Corps size game it seems a bit ackward to me.

I think that reequipping a unit requires a lot of logistical effort (shipping the stuff there, training the crews). While it is possible to do this when in contact with the enemy, it would take more time than when the unit is in the security of the etappe. In CEAW, equipping a front line unit would therefor take probably two turns instead of one. I can't see how this could be smoothly integrated into the game mechanics.

Aryaman wrote:One thing I find odd in the game is that units can´t be upgraded if they are close to enemy units. We are talking of Corps size units, it seems unrealistic that you have to retreat an entire corps from frontline for 40 days (1 turn for retreating, another one for upgrading). It is nice touch for a Battalion/regiment size game, but for the scale of this game it is not reasonable. I think units should be allowed to upgrade in front line, maybe lowering their affectiveness 10 points instead of 5 to balance, but it will be also smoother from the game mechanics point of view. I hope this is considered for GS v.2.0

I've raised this previously without success. My issue with the current rules is that this primarily disadvantages the axis player who is invariably forced to be adjacent to allied units (as the allied player I deliberately try to ZOC axis units, especially in russia once I get the initiative) and therefore generates a somewhat weird outcome of the axis player not being able to upgrade his units.

I think that reequipment as a process is very close to unit repair - difference is that when you repair you deliver old equipment to the front, and when you reequip you deliver new one. Current model don't look very good, because when you are on defence and want to reequip, you have to abandon current positions (losing ent, good positions and so on) and retreat so reequipment (which expected to make defenders stronger) actually make them weaker.
Afterall hex is 50 miles and there is enough space out of enemy direct fire...

I am not so sure about this. I think that along with reequiping comes training. You can't just throw new tanks into frontline units without any form of training. When new tiger and Panthers appeared at the front this was with crews trained in there use. Only when certain equipment such as new infantry weapons could these be included into frontline units.

The other point is that units need to rest and recuperate and need time away from the front in order to continue to be effective. Think of all the German units sent to France, Balkans to rest and recuperate - this was being done right till the end with combat divisions being rested.

This all said - this is usually done at a divisional or more usually smaller level as we are dealing with Corps - someone else with better historical knowledge would need to comment on this.

afk_nero wrote: This all said - this is usually done at a divisional or more usually smaller level as we are dealing with Corps - someone else with better historical knowledge would need to comment on this.

This is the key point....

The other reason why the Germans sent units to France to re-equip is that they had been knocked down to what would be 1 or 2 steps in the game. Moving the units away from the fount in this case makes sense.

Getting a new artillery piece or some better pants doesn't mean an infantry unit should need to disengage from the front lines. For mecs and armor I would say that it does. so maybe infantry can upgrade in ZOC but the other units can't.

Perhaps Johann & Ian set up the upgrade rules for play balance? I mean upgrading can have pretty big combat effects!

Historically, it depends on the nation. As stated prevously, upgrade/replacement was done at a division level or lower. The Soviets and Germans had smaller divisions with fewer support units, so they were unable to maintain combat efficiency while in extended heavy combat. The USA & UK had larger divisions with more support units, and were expected to maintain their fighting effectiveness while in the front line and far from the homeland, with supply lines to the home land often stretching over ocean distances. Western allies also setup replacement depots that replaced manpower and destroyed equipment.

The downside of the USA & UK approach is that replacements often had to be absorbed while in combat, so there was no time for training and the new troops didn't survive. The Germans and Soviets trained replacements in rear areas and then deployed to combat. On the other hand, many German & Soviet units were effectively wiped out in combat since they could not be withdrawn.

I would agree that upgrades are different than replacements, especially for air units, and should be handled diffently.

I think the new swap function in 2.0 will go a long way to fixing the upgrading problem.