Slitherine

Stop these troop types turning and moving they are far to powerful in FOG, theres just to many armies on the table that are able to do this unhistorical movement. Before you jump up and down if your in a block advancing towards your foe would you suddenly turn 90 and move away, do this and it stops all this unhistorical turn and move while close to enemies.

Seems to be a lot of talking about LH when what i see is loads of drilled foot charging around the table like some kind of sports car never failing a test cause there drilled with a general around.

I fought a swiss army and he never once failed a CMT with his drilled Swiss and a general around so come on lets hit those HF troops or is it okey for them to do what they want then.

As I said in other post, turn the CMT into CT and people will think more about going to the battlefield to manouver. The problem now is that if you fail the CMT nothing bad happens. In the worst case you make only a simple move.

I agree with you that, given the scale of game chosen for FoG (mixing hastati and principes!) there are too many tactical options for drilled troops. When such a design decision is taken it should come with a heavy limitation on mouvements.

Why do you think it is unhistorical HF/MF turning 90º and move? I would suppose it would be not very difficult fordrilled foot, for ex. drilled roman or chinese troops to do that.

OTH I really have some dificulties trying to imagine cavalry, specially undrilled cavalry do that in the middle of a run. Should be something like this, in a group of barbarian ostrogothic cavalry running at full speed, suddenly the warchief says, tuuuurn leeeeft and they immediately turn 90º and continue their movement.....all in perfect order and without even slowing down.

And when we get to chariots, well would they even be able to turn 90º ????

Why not a 90° on a units front?

I think this sort of drilled foot manouver is OK is it's a long way from the enemy, effectively pre commitment manouver. The problem is that at the moment it occurs far too close to the enemy. Partly, this happens because people can trun AND move, so can leave it very late before turning away. Perhaps a way to do it is to just allow them to turn.

It's really turning in the face of the enemy that looks silly. Perhaps an option would be to have a longer restricted area for flanks. e.g. normal RA is 2MU, keep this if you aren't behind the flank. But if you are behind the enemy flank your RA is 6MU? Hence an enemy turning within 6MU would suddenly find themselves pinned. Also, since the enemy will then get to move, they could advance to pin from the flank.

grahambriggs wrote:I think this sort of drilled foot manouver is OK is it's a long way from the enemy, effectively pre commitment manouver. The problem is that at the moment it occurs far too close to the enemy. Partly, this happens because people can trun AND move, so can leave it very late before turning away. Perhaps a way to do it is to just allow them to turn.

i agree with you the ability at this time is that HF drilled can turn and move if keeping outrange of 5mu they are free to do what they want. I don't think it historical to do so at close range to enemy troops. How to change it stop turn and move go with FOG R and a 8 to pass CMT for all.

david53 wrote:Stop these troop types turning and moving they are far to powerful in FOG, theres just to many armies on the table that are able to do this unhistorical movement. Before you jump up and down if your in a block advancing towards your foe would you suddenly turn 90 and move away, do this and it stops all this unhistorical turn and move while close to enemies.

Seems to be a lot of talking about LH when what i see is loads of drilled foot charging around the table like some kind of sports car never failing a test cause there drilled with a general around.

I fought a swiss army and he never once failed a CMT with his drilled Swiss and a general around so come on lets hit those HF troops or is it okey for them to do what they want then.

Also English longbow men, pikemen and the myriad mercenaries and militia in the later mediaeval armies who all seem to have a blanket treatment as drilled. Did they really display this kind of manoeuvring historically?

Not to mention the psychic ability to know when a flank is being turned and so can turn 90 and move off to face before they even see the enemy approaching.

Walter

I think this sort of drilled foot manouver is OK is it's a long way from the enemy, effectively pre commitment manouver. The problem is that at the moment it occurs far too close to the enemy. Partly, this happens because people can trun AND move, so can leave it very late before turning away. Perhaps a way to do it is to just allow them to turn.

This is my sense as well. My two thoughts are therrefore:

• CT if it would open you up to a flank charge from anything - stand their down a level if you fail (pretty scary therefore)
  -1 on CMTs to do so within 8MU of enemy

This would make it harder to do, but Sup and Elites might pull it off close to enemy without a CT loss. No-one will be too keen to do a turn 90 and move when 3MU from Cavalry due to CT effect.

S

The point here is how well tropps would perform manouvers, specially next to an enemy. I can see an undrilled BG turning if their officers tell them to do so and I can't see why if they fail the CMT they couldn't do it (why would they remain still or move somehow different?). The point here is obeying to orders but check how disorganized the formation of the unit would be (unless the CMT is inteded to represent troops disobeying orders, which I do not think is the case).

I think that the mechanism of transforming all CMT into CT's would make things simpler and will put forward the superiority of drilled armies. The point will be then about modifiers, which I think is simpler to learn than being aware in which situations you need a CT and in which ones a CMT (both of them with different modifiers themselves). Therefore, this would be as follows: CT for every complex move (let's say 8's) and modifiers depending if you are drilled (+1), would expose a flank (-2), if you are close to an enemy (-3), if you are more than 6MU away from enemies (+4), etc. Certainly the specific modifiers should be tested.

At the same time, to correct that troops might break from moving, it can be used the rule trat troops can only be broken by autobreak or in close combat. Both would fit nicely here.

david53 wrote:
i agree with you the ability at this time is that HF drilled can turn and move if keeping outrange of 5mu they are free to do what they want. I don't think it historical to do so at close range to enemy troops. How to change it stop turn and move go with FOG R and a 8 to pass CMT for all.

Well given that R seems to have addressed a few known issues in AM it seems likely that this will happen. It is strange however that the roll should be an 8, when drilled troops pass on a 7 in AM. Suddenly the Swiss became less organised?