Slitherine

Regardless of the rules question this is a once in a lifetime series of mishaps involving those ever popular Pontic Scythed chariots that needs to be told.

Playing my Pontics vs LRR and a situation came up like this

Numidian LtH have shot my scythed chariots to fragmented, 3 " behind the chariots are a 6 strong allied Armenian Cataphract unit with general.
The numidians charge the fragged chariots, who fail their CT and break. The Armenians take an immediate CT for seiing friends break and drop to disrupted, the chariots rout thru the cataphracts dropping them another level to frag, the pursuing Numidians now contact into the Cataphracts causing them to take another CT for being charged when fragged and they fail and break. Did we do this right?

Let the laughter begin....

I don't think anyone cares that scythed chariots break. That is what they are there for.
All else seems correct. So you should have been disrupted and the light horse would have stopped 1 mu from your cats.
Gino
SMAC

Shouldn't the Numidians have passed a CMT to charge unbroken battle troops?

philqw78 wrote:Shouldn't the Numidians have passed a CMT to charge unbroken battle troops?

Light horse dont have to test to charge fragmented troops ir the scythed chariots so cant contact the cats in the follow through.

LH must pass a CMT to charge unbroken non skirmisher to their front . So LH, test, charge , then impact the CT .....

philqw78 wrote:Shouldn't the Numidians have passed a CMT to charge unbroken battle troops?

CT isn't it, not a CMT?

expendablecinc wrote:Light horse dont have to test to charge fragmented troops

They have to rest to charge any Unbroken non-skirmishers frontally. Fragmented are not broken.

but i don't think that Cataphract must test to see the Chariot broken. They are expandable so no test when they broke???

The LH presumably passed a CT to charge the chariots. This would then qualify them to charge the disrupted cataphracts. Probably rather bad news for the LH.

Ideally for the LH, the chariots needed to pass their fragmented charged test, but be routed in the impact. The LH would then have stopped short of the cataphracts in the pursuit.

The test to charge is a CMT surely. Failing a CT to charge would result in fragmentation for disrupted non-shock. And there is no CT for seeing Scythed Chariots go up in smoke, or down in pieces

philqw78 wrote:The test to charge is a CMT surely. Failing a CT to charge would result in fragmentation for disrupted non-shock. And there is no CT for seeing Scythed Chariots go up in smoke, or down in pieces

Oh well, I knew it seemed pretty harsh to drop 3 levels in the impact phase without even being in combat, but i guess it is possible with bad die rolls afterall (just not due to expendable chariots)

I missed the part about ignoring the CT when scythed chariots break. I thought it was just that they didn't count as a lost BG. I am also pretty sure we didn't have the LH take a CMT to charge the fragmented chariots either.

Thanks guys

philqw78 wrote:The test to charge is a CMT surely.

Yup indeed - I must have been thinking of something else

nikgaukroger wrote:

philqw78 wrote:The test to charge is a CMT surely.

Yup indeed - I must have been thinking of something else

FoG:R perhaps?

So were the Scythed Chariots worth it or not?

So any LH group just blows them up?

Seems not worth it - very much like a gimmick

Scythed chariots are a bit overpriced - deliberately - for their effect on the table. They hate being shot at, so putting them in the front line with no screening doesn't work. They're a bit better if in a second wave. 30 points for 6 decent impact dice is handy, especially if you can hit something that's already disrupted.

The other use I've found for them is when you need a sacrificial BG - e'g something tough is coming round your flank. That uses the 'nobody minds if they die' special rule.

Unfortunately, both uses are unhistoric but then again I've not found any rule set that represents these troops properly.

philqw78 wrote:The test to charge is a CMT surely. Failing a CT to charge would result in fragmentation for disrupted non-shock. And there is no CT for seeing Scythed Chariots go up in smoke, or down in pieces

Phil, can you please reference where it says a CT is not required for seeing a Scythed Chariot BG break? I've found nothing in the FAQ or errats, but under the section in the rules on Cohesion Tests / subsection, "Seeing Friendly Battle Gruops Break or Commander Lost", it gives an exception that "only skirmishers need test if the broken friends are skimishers". There is no exception for Scythed Chariots. The "no CT for Scythed Chariots" is only at the start of the JAP phase, where the rules say, "Scythed Chariots that remain in front edge contact with unbroken enemy they fought this turn are removed from the table at the start of the joint action phase. This does not cause any cohesion tests." "This" refers only to removing the chariots at the start of the JAP and not to other events.

Also, as I understand the beginning of the Impact rules (Declaration of Charges), the LH could not contact the cataphracts that phase as it says, "If a CMT is required to make a charge move against certain troops, it must be taken if required for any of the BG that can be "legally" contacted in the chosen direction or charge, including by stepping forward bases. It need not and cannot be taken for those that can only be contacted if another BG evades or routs." So, the LH must take a CMT to charge the chariots, but at the time of taking that CMT the cataphracts are not a legal charge target.

The sequence as I read the rules would be:
1) LH take CMT to charge chariots - successful here I presume.
2) Chariots take CT for being charged while fragmented and rout.
3) Cataphracts take CT for seeing chariots rout and become disrupted.
4) Chariots rout and disrupt cataphracts who become fragmented.

End of sequence. LH do not charge and do not pursue.

shadowdragon wrote:Phil, can you please reference where it says a CT is not required for seeing a Scythed Chariot BG break? I've found nothing in the FAQ or errats, but under the section in the rules on Cohesion Tests / subsection, "Seeing Friendly Battle Gruops Break or Commander Lost", it gives an exception that "only skirmishers need test if the broken friends are skimishers". There is no exception for Scythed Chariots. The "no CT for Scythed Chariots" is only at the start of the JAP phase, where the rules say, "Scythed Chariots that remain in front edge contact with unbroken enemy they fought this turn are removed from the table at the start of the joint action phase. This does not cause any cohesion tests." "This" refers only to removing the chariots at the start of the JAP and not to other events.

Also, as I understand the beginning of the Impact rules (Declaration of Charges), the LH could not contact the cataphracts that phase as it says, "If a CMT is required to make a charge move against certain troops, it must be taken if required for any of the BG that can be "legally" contacted in the chosen direction or charge, including by stepping forward bases. It need not and cannot be taken for those that can only be contacted if another BG evades or routs." So, the LH must take a CMT to charge the chariots, but at the time of taking that CMT the cataphracts are not a legal charge target.

The sequence as I read the rules would be:
1) LH take CMT to charge chariots - successful here I presume.
2) Chariots take CT for being charged while fragmented and rout.
3) Cataphracts take CT for seeing chariots rout and become disrupted.
4) Chariots rout and disrupt cataphracts who become fragmented.

End of sequence. LH do not charge and do not pursue.

oooh. Interesting on SCh break and charge points. Am at work so can't look it up. But the LH will still charge.

philqw78 wrote:oooh. Interesting on SCh break and charge points. Am at work so can't look it up. But the LH will still charge.

Right, the LH will still charge, the same as if the target had evaded (i.e., with a VMD)???? But would they then stop 1 MU short of the cataphracts?

No they hit them as they had passed the test already.

If they were charging skirmishers and didn't test, or could not as no needing to test for target was in range, they cannot then test if one comes into range after evades and VMD's either. So a bystander was heard to say.

I'm similarly without rules but I think I remeber it being in the 'special rules' section that tells you how scythed chariots work