Slitherine

Apparently they were not very good at it. Spear, ImpFt and pike lose POA when charging shock mounted. (It adds a few lines to the rules). However, foot who were poor against mounted are no worse if they charge them.

I propose:

Delete the line saying "+....unless charging shock mounted", from the spear, pike and ImpFt POA. (save 3 lines*)

Add a single line for all foot at the end. "- if charging shock mountd in open terrain". (add 1 line*)



*If you don't like the rule just think of the tree it will save.

philqw78 wrote:Apparently they were not very good at it. Spear, ImpFt and pike lose POA when charging shock mounted. (It adds a few lines to the rules). However, foot who were poor against mounted are no worse if they charge them.

I propose:

Delete the line saying "+....unless charging shock mounted", from the spear, pike and ImpFt POA. (save 3 lines*)

Add a single line for all foot at the end. "- if charging shock mountd in open terrain". (add 1 line*)



*If you don't like the rule just think of the tree it will save.

Like the change but would like to know why pike lose if they charge shock mounted who in most cases have Lance which is shorter than Pike and maybe the same size as offensive spear.

Or better still Infantry only can charge mounted by passing a CMT

Love trees

david53 wrote:would like to know why pike lose if they charge shock mounted who in most cases have Lance which is shorter than Pike and maybe the same size as offensive spear.

They lose the POA as the rules stand now. This just removes that line from the rules. The reason being that charging disrupts formation.

david53 wrote: Like the change but would like to know why pike lose if they charge shock mounted who in most cases have Lance which is shorter than Pike and maybe the same size as offensive spear.

Because they didn't? I can't think of one instance where infantry armed with pointy sticks charged shock mounted.

jlopez wrote:

david53 wrote: Like the change but would like to know why pike lose if they charge shock mounted who in most cases have Lance which is shorter than Pike and maybe the same size as offensive spear.

Because they didn't? I can't think of one instance where infantry armed with pointy sticks charged shock mounted.

Could have sworn the Alaxandrians charged Persain Cavalry,

Did'nt the swiss pike charge the Auistrians?

Will check this out when home I can't believe no pikes charged Mounted troops ie Lancers/Knights

david53 wrote: Could have sworn the Alaxandrians charged Persain Cavalry,

Not that the Persians are shock cavalry, which is the point I believe.

david53 wrote:
Could have sworn the Alaxandrians charged Persain Cavalry,

Did'nt the swiss pike charge the Auistrians?

Will check this out when home I can't believe no pikes charged Mounted troops ie Lancers/Knights

The Persian cavalry that Alexander fought isn't classed as shock in FOG so it doesn't affect the POA.

I think you're referring to the battle of Laupen where the Bernese charged the Freiburg cavalry. These were engaging the Forest Canton orb and in FOG terms it would qualify as a flank charge with the consequent ++ POA for the pikes. No frontal charge here, in fact the Bernese foot actually stood its ground when initially faced with cavalry.

david53 wrote:

philqw78 wrote:Apparently they were not very good at it. Spear, ImpFt and pike lose POA when charging shock mounted. (It adds a few lines to the rules). However, foot who were poor against mounted are no worse if they charge them.

I propose:

Delete the line saying "+....unless charging shock mounted", from the spear, pike and ImpFt POA. (save 3 lines*)

Add a single line for all foot at the end. "- if charging shock mountd in open terrain". (add 1 line*)



*If you don't like the rule just think of the tree it will save.

Like the change but would like to know why pike lose if they charge shock mounted who in most cases have Lance which is shorter than Pike and maybe the same size as offensive spear.

Or better still Infantry only can charge mounted by passing a CMT

Love trees

I had thought that it was based on the fact that pike receiving a charge from impact mounted had specific anti cavalry drills. They were needed to counteract the momentum of a charging horse and rider. e.g. place butt of pike in hard ground so the earth takes the impact, make sure it forms a hedge with all the other pikes, put your foot on it to keep it there, lower the point to the horses chest, your mtes behind brace you to keep you still, etc.

Without such a drill, you'll get knocked over (whether or not you kill a man or horse) and there'll be an opening for the next rider.

Of course, if the horsemen haven't formed up for a determined charge, you don't have the momentum problem, so can get stuck in. As the foot companions did at Granicus, as the Persian cavalry seem to have tried for stationary defence of a river bank, which failed.

Initially seems simpler but a bit tough on heavy wpn or no impact wpn types (eg bows or sword and buckler men) who are then actually at a - POA when charging shock mounted.

Paul Longmore

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n wrote:Initially seems simpler but a bit tough on heavy wpn or no impact wpn types (eg bows or sword and buckler men) who are then actually at a - POA when charging shock mounted.

Paul Longmore

Did Hvy Wpn charge mounted? But anyway console yourself with the fact that it would be a -- for them if they are MF

philqw78 wrote:

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n wrote:Initially seems simpler but a bit tough on heavy wpn or no impact wpn types (eg bows or sword and buckler men) who are then actually at a - POA when charging shock mounted.

Paul Longmore

Did Hvy Wpn charge mounted? But anyway console yourself with the fact that it would be a -- for them if they are MF

Well there is no actual evidence for it but reading between non-existent lines we could always assume they went berserk and slipped in an impromtu charge every now and again. That is, of course, between periods of rest to catch their breath...

I think i have read somewhere, that roman legionaires did on at least one occasion, charge cataphracts (and they were successful ), although i agree this would be an exception.

When charging is mentioned do we think that Cavalry or Knights would charge into a solid wall of pikes. I thought that being intelligebt animals Horses would'nt charge in like Edwards army did'nt against Bruce in our period or any horse charging any square in the 19th century.(time period is different but horses the same)

david53 wrote:When charging is mentioned do we think that Cavalry or Knights would charge into a solid wall of pikes. I thought that being intelligebt animals Horses would'nt charge in like Edwards army did'nt against Bruce in our period or any horse charging any square in the 19th century.(time period is different but horses the same)

This is wht the pikes are at ++ and the spears at +

philqw78 wrote:

david53 wrote:When charging is mentioned do we think that Cavalry or Knights would charge into a solid wall of pikes. I thought that being intelligebt animals Horses would'nt charge in like Edwards army did'nt against Bruce in our period or any horse charging any square in the 19th century.(time period is different but horses the same)

This is wht the pikes are at ++ and the spears at +

The simple answe is that Knights would charge pikemen, during the charge they would be so close together that they had little choice but to keep going.

French Knights often charged pikemen and invariably beat them*, there are numerous accounts of Knights riding down Low Countries and other such rubbish pike. When other nations knights charged, then they invariably lost.

* eventually

VMadeira wrote:I think i have read somewhere, that roman legionaires did on at least one occasion, charge cataphracts (and they were successful ), although i agree this would be an exception.

That would be the battle of Tigranocerta. The overconfident Armenians thought Lucullus' Romans were retreating. In fact they swept round the Armenian flank and charged downhill intot he flank of the cataphracts. They can also do this in FoG at a ++

jlopez wrote:

david53 wrote:
Could have sworn the Alaxandrians charged Persain Cavalry,

Did'nt the swiss pike charge the Auistrians?

Will check this out when home I can't believe no pikes charged Mounted troops ie Lancers/Knights

The Persian cavalry that Alexander fought isn't classed as shock in FOG so it doesn't affect the POA.

I think you're referring to the battle of Laupen where the Bernese charged the Freiburg cavalry. These were engaging the Forest Canton orb and in FOG terms it would qualify as a flank charge with the consequent ++ POA for the pikes. No frontal charge here, in fact the Bernese foot actually stood its ground when initially faced with cavalry.

But in the early period all Swiss are HW. In FoG they cannot form ORB.

gozerius wrote: But in the early period all Swiss are HW. In FoG they cannot form ORB.

Outrageous, isn't it? Fancy them not having read the rulebook! Just goes to show you can never entirely trust your opponents. To be fair, I suspect levels of literacy weren't too high in the 14th century.