Slitherine

Light chariots and their associated armies seem to be a bit on the outs in FoG. Even in relatively speaking "themed" events it is the heavy chariot armies (e.g. ITC Lisbon, I believe 2 out of 8 armies in the early period had light chariots) that seem to get the nod.

I think the capabilities are interesting but the reality of making up a light chariot army makes them pretty tough to use. They are expensive on a BG basis (IIRC 72AP for drilled superior with bow) which means that the light chariot armies tend not to be very bulky in BGs and they are often pared with MF which means such armies are very light indeed.

Perhaps they need a bit love in FoG 2.0. I can see a couple of things that might help. Obviously, a straight AP cost reduction might be in order, this would let them bulk up the rest of the army. More radically perhaps they could operate in BGs of 3s instead of 4s which would increase their overall maneuverability, BG count and articulation. One of the issues wiht light chariots is that you want to use them in some of the same ways as things like light spear cavalry, but they take up some much space they have trouble setting up flank charges for each other and given the generally low number of formed BG in the light chariot armies, they are "faced" off a bit too easily by their opponents.

Even more radically...perhaps they ought ot be allowed to make the LH back up 3MU move and face the same way if in a thin line? Anyway, these are fun and interesting armies that right now don't get much consideration.

ethan wrote:Light chariots and their associated armies seem to be a bit on the outs in FoG. Even in relatively speaking "themed" events it is the heavy chariot armies (e.g. ITC Lisbon, I believe 2 out of 8 armies in the early period had light chariots) that seem to get the nod.

I think the capabilities are interesting but the reality of making up a light chariot army makes them pretty tough to use. They are expensive on a BG basis (IIRC 72AP for drilled superior with bow) which means that the light chariot armies tend not to be very bulky in BGs and they are often pared with MF which means such armies are very light indeed.

No complaints there

Perhaps they need a bit love in FoG 2.0. I can see a couple of things that might help. Obviously, a straight AP cost reduction might be in order, this would let them bulk up the rest of the army. More radically perhaps they could operate in BGs of 3s instead of 4s which would increase their overall maneuverability, BG count and articulation. One of the issues wiht light chariots is that you want to use them in some of the same ways as things like light spear cavalry, but they take up some much space they have trouble setting up flank charges for each other and given the generally low number of formed BG in the light chariot armies, they are "faced" off a bit too easily by their opponents.

Not sure this would help - the big problem with BG's of three is that it only takes one hit to cause a test.

Even more radically...perhaps they ought ot be allowed to make the LH back up 3MU move and face the same way if in a thin line? Anyway, these are fun and interesting armies that right now don't get much consideration.

An interesting suggestion, with merit I would suggest. As somebody who has used Light Chariots extensively in practice, but never been brave enough to take to competition I guess I am in agreement with Ethan in that they need something.

At the moment at 18 points a chuck they are more expensive than Armoured Superior Lancer Cavalry but nowhere near as good. They aren't as good as Bow Cavalry because they need to be more spread out as they have to evade because they have no close combat or melee POA and when they lose a base it hurts a lot.

Points values could be looked at, but I might be tempted to do something more radical like give them 2 dice a base for shooting, 1.5 would be better, but that would be too difficult to work out I think

I have never played a light chariot army. I always assumed they were unpopular, not because of the chariots, but because of their "back-up".

Having used light chariot light spear in a couple of comps, I agree that they are not very good except in exceptional circumstances - e.g. they were OK when I had 4 bases fighting 4 bases of lancers in uneven terrain with no-one else around.

The 2 superior dice per base only makes up for the lack of POA when you have overlaps and they are very vulnerable to shooting. Even winning a melee they tend to take a lot of hits and still lose bases.

Being down in melee against unprotected med foot with sword makes me never want to use them ever. They're almost the same points cost as arm bow/sw cav (I think they are if the bow/sw cav are undrilled) but cant fight worth a damn. Meaning armies centred around them have no punch to speak of. Even if they just had the swordsman capability it would make them respectable and people would actually want to use them.

I don't think they are that terrible but they are difficult to use and you have to think hard how to apply them. I have three bgs of them in my Ancient British, which although is hardly a killer army it can be quite effective. You need a good plan as you will be a poa down nearly all the time. Wouldnt complain if the cost was reduced, I could by smoe more MF whopee

Base for base, superior light chariots are better in melee than any cavalry or cataphracts. Many of which are more points than the chariots.
And they can evade whilst in their most effective fighting formation, which cavalry cannot do.

dave_r wrote: Points values could be looked at, but I might be tempted to do something more radical like give them 2 dice a base for shooting, 1.5 would be better, but that would be too difficult to work out I think

Should be doable.

Light Chariots get 1 die per base, pluse 1 bonus die per two bases in shooting or something similar.

"Base for base, superior light chariots are better in melee than any cavalry or cataphracts. Many of which are more points than the chariots.
And they can evade whilst in their most effective fighting formation, which cavalry cannot do"

And this is particularl odd, as I thought cavalry replaced chariotry, there should be some reason for it...

If there is need to improve biblical armies, the changes should be done in the other troops, not in chariots that are already well powered.

VMadeira wrote:If there is need to improve biblical armies, the changes should be done in the other troops, not in chariots that are already well powered.

There is no need to improve them as they fight perfectly well against other Biblical armies

Light chariots get a lot of dice, but are generally at minus in the melee. They should shoot their enemy to disrupted, then go to melee.

Chariots were probably replaced due to the expense of maintanance, horse and chariot. Their poor performance "off road". 2 horse chariot=1 fighting crew, whereas cav=1 fighting 'crew' per horse. Horses improved (evolution/breeding v's engineering at the time) and could carry more/better, chariots didn't. I'm sure there's more

I am not convinced that light chariots do well even in biblical comps actually. They will have trouble with the ever present protected, light spear, MF (often rear rank with bow) and in my experience virtually no one takes light chariots when there are other choices available.

ethan wrote:I am not convinced that light chariots do well even in biblical comps actually. They will have trouble with the ever present protected, light spear, MF (often rear rank with bow) and in my experience virtually no one takes light chariots when there are other choices available.

Here are a couple posts from non-virtual people who have used light chariots:

viewtopic.php?t=17432
viewtopic.php?t=16425

Polkovnik wrote:Base for base, superior light chariots are better in melee than any cavalry or cataphracts. Many of which are more points than the chariots.
And they can evade whilst in their most effective fighting formation, which cavalry cannot do.

Yes, but you can get twice as many cavalry bases fighting in the same space. Therefore you are normally fighting outnumbered 2:1 in bases so with equal numbers of dice and at a - POA. Also with double the frontage you take twice as many hits and are therefore more vulnerable to death rolls than two narrow-frontage BGs of cavalry.

If light chariots were worth the points, they would be as common and successful as cavalry are in open comps.

lawrenceg wrote: If light chariots were worth the points, they would be as common and successful as cavalry are in open comps.

That would depend on the rest of the army as well.

nikgaukroger wrote:

lawrenceg wrote: If light chariots were worth the points, they would be as common and successful as cavalry are in open comps.

That would depend on the rest of the army as well.

Well, either the chariots, or the stuff that comes with them are not worth the points, then, so both need looking at.