Slitherine

What is the best size unit for MF Bow? I'm using Ottomans and have been running my Janissaries in 6's as they seem more mobile this way. I see most people use units of 8 though. Any deep dark reasons for this?

With regard to the Ottomans some people regard the Janissaries as the best troops and want to use all 16 bases.

Taking the bow in bases of 6 means they will take tests after receiving 2 hits from shooting, in bases of 8 they require receiving 3 hits from shooting to force a test.

Also a 6 base BG will only be able to shoot maximum 4 dice whereas an 8 base BG can shoot maximum 6 dice.

Rob

richafricanus wrote:What is the best size unit for MF Bow? I'm using Ottomans and have been running my Janissaries in 6's as they seem more mobile this way. I see most people use units of 8 though. Any deep dark reasons for this?

No mostly as Rob says people think the bows are the best troops (until you face armoured Bow Superior)

I would say without ever having played with them take 8's if you can, just for the extra dice.

Dave

Robert241167 wrote:With regard to the Ottomans some people regard the Janissaries as the best troops and want to use all 16 bases.

Taking the bow in bases of 6 means they will take tests after receiving 2 hits from shooting, in bases of 8 they require receiving 3 hits from shooting to force a test.

Also a 6 base BG will only be able to shoot maximum 4 dice whereas an 8 base BG can shoot maximum 6 dice.

Rob

This assumes that you are always fielding your BGs in complete ranks. 6 bases will get only 4 dice if you field them in a 3x2 formation. If you field them with 4 in the first rank and 2 in the second rank, you'll put out 5 dice of shooting. However, once you get into impact (in the same formation), things get pretty scary.

I do not have a good answer for the best sized BG. I would take 1 or 2 of 8 stands and the rest would be at size 6 stands to hopefully increase the number of BGs.

eldiablito wrote:

Robert241167 wrote:With regard to the Ottomans some people regard the Janissaries as the best troops and want to use all 16 bases.

Taking the bow in bases of 6 means they will take tests after receiving 2 hits from shooting, in bases of 8 they require receiving 3 hits from shooting to force a test.

Also a 6 base BG will only be able to shoot maximum 4 dice whereas an 8 base BG can shoot maximum 6 dice.

Rob

This assumes that you are always fielding your BGs in complete ranks. 6 bases will get only 4 dice if you field them in a 3x2 formation. If you field them with 4 in the first rank and 2 in the second rank, you'll put out 5 dice of shooting. However, once you get into impact (in the same formation), things get pretty scary.

I do not have a good answer for the best sized BG. I would take 1 or 2 of 8 stands and the rest would be at size 6 stands to hopefully increase the number of BGs.

Yes doing it 4 and 2 means you lose support shooting and in melee you lose dice as well.

With the Turks you can only have 16 bases Medium bow.

There is also the question of what you are facing. If you have two 6 base BGs you can sometimes line up opposite an 8 base BG and force it to split it's six dice 3 and 3 - much less likely to get the number of hits needed for you to take a CT. Then your 4 and 4 going back really start to hurt, lot better odds than trading 6s. Not much can absorb 8 shooting dice.

As Dave says, its really high risk running 4 and 2 into combat - I ran it once in the middle of my NKE against some Heavy Chariots, never again.

With the Ottomans, the size of the Bow BG is less important than taking them with the firearm equiped LF. That's when things start to get interesting. Run the numbers and see what fairs better against a 8 base bow BG than it does against a 6 base bow BG and a 4 base LF BG. Not much that I can see.

Regards
Tim

I figure it depends on what else is in your army and will that 8 base unit start to get in the way of your other troops. ITs nice to get the extra dice but if they go, thats a big hole in your line to try and plug. I have tried bows in 8's with other armies and decided 6's worked better for me. Less dice but 6 does not cause issues with space in the line. My experience has been with 25mm, 15mm might not find the same problems with crowding.

I would use 6paks. If space is tight, they can contract by one base and still count as a 6 base BG. Three dice coming from a 2 base frontage is nice.

I've used both and found that BGs of 8 have been more effective and resilient.

I've used both and found that BGs of 8 have been more effective and resilient.

Me too.

petedalby wrote:

I've used both and found that BGs of 8 have been more effective and resilient.

Me too.

I agree. There is no doubt in my mind that 8 element shooter BGs are better. Not taking tests for being shot at is crucial because failing them is usually promptly followed by a death-blow charge. BGs of 6 are very vulnerable to skirmishers which BGs of 8 can usually shrug off.

If using undrilled, 8s are more clumsy to manouver than 6s. If drilled this is not really a problem.

I'd always take the Immortals in 8s. Putting them two wide and four deep maximises manouver. You have a 6 base wide area to the front that a CMY will allow you to soak with arrows, plus the left or right turn and move options.

Personally I like my missile troops in 8s if they are going to be in the frontline, and 6s if they are there as cheap support for frontline troops.

It depends on the role in the army.

I too like jannisaries in 8s.

Often drilled average protected that are flank guards I will trim to 6.

If I plan to put them into the front line they will be in 8s.

hazelbark wrote:It depends on the roll in the army.

I too like jannisaries in 8s.

Often drilled average protected that are flank guards I will trim to 6.

If I plan to put them into the front line they will be in 8s.

I like the flank guards as 8, much less vulnerable to skirmishers shooting at them. There is a huge difference wrt to incoming shooting between a 6 and an 8.

timmy1 wrote:There is also the question of what you are facing. If you have two 6 base BGs you can sometimes line up opposite an 8 base BG and force it to split it's six dice 3 and 3 - much less likely to get the number of hits needed for you to take a CT. Then your 4 and 4 going back really start to hurt, lot better odds than trading 6s. Not much can absorb 8 shooting dice.

If you have 2 BG's of 6 firing at one BG of 8 then you get 9 dice not 8 as you have 6 front rank bases (giving 6 dice) and 6 back rank bases (giving 3 dice). When shooting at a single target you add up all bases firing at the target before calculating the number of lost dice for back rank shooters. It makes using BG's of 6 in pairs more effective. Of course your opponent will try and stop you firing all your bases at one target!

As for my Ottomans, I always usemy Janissaries in BG's of 8 and then support them with a BG of LF with Firearms. That usually deters Knights from charging them.

Regards
Martin

ottomanmjm wrote:As for my Ottomans, I always usemy Janissaries in BG's of 8 and then support them with a BG of LF with Firearms. That usually deters Knights from charging them.

Regards
Martin

How. LF firearms deter knights? Surely they would make the knights more likely to charge.

philqw78 wrote:

ottomanmjm wrote:As for my Ottomans, I always use my Janissaries in BG's of 8 and then support them with a BG of LF with Firearms. That usually deters Knights from charging them.

Regards
Martin

How. LF firearms deter knights? Surely they would make the knights more likely to charge.

Well, the worst offenders are poor LF with firearms. The reason behind this is from the following example. Pretend that 8 MF bow and 4 LF firearms all fire on 4 heavily armored knights. The 8 bow will fire 6 dice at effective range and the firearms will get 2 more dice. The bows will hit on 5+ and the firearms will hit on 4+. Now assume the average (rounding down) and you get 2 bow hits and 1 firearm hit. The knights will now take a -2 cohesion test; -1 for enough shooting hits and another -1 for firearms being used. Heck! You don't even have to hit once with the firearms to still cause the -1 to the cohesion test, just make sure you do enough hits with the archers. So, because you get the same ability to reduce morale with poor, superior and average firearms, then why not take poor and save yourself the points.

Also, let us pretend that the knights charge the LF. If the opponent who is using the LF has any clue at using their skirmishers, they will be within 2 inches away when shooting (usually at some sort of angle away from a direct charge), or 4 inches away when intending to goad your knights into a charge (and usually, STILL at a crafty angle that forces the knights out of position). So, if the LF had shot at the knights, and straight ahead, then the knights will need to hope that the LF rolls a 1 (or 2) on their flee and the knights also roll a 5+ (or a 6) for their pursuit! The odds of catching the LF is not good (actually a 3 out of 36 odds of catching the LF).

In a worst case scenario, the LF and bow disrupt the knights in the previous turn. Then, the knights fail to hold back a charge and are intercepted by flanking, enemy cavalry. Effectively, the knights instantly drop to Fragmented and are now fighting a loosing battle against armored, swordsmen cavalry!?! Unfortunately, when I was new to this game, I got to experience this very strategy. If I remember it correctly, I received shooting dice from MF bow, LF firearms, and even superior bow dice from the enemy cavalry that was preparing to intercept.

So the knights are more likely to charge then. Which is what I said.

Or you could support the knights with other troops on either flank so that the enemy don't get to shoot 12 bases at them then intercept charge you in flank. And you might put the knights two deep to minimise shots on the way in. Or counter the handgunners with your own skirmishers.

If only my opponents would fritter their power troops away in such a piecemeal fashion!