Slitherine

What are the best troops for fighting against pikes (aside from other pikes)? Or just avoid them?

The best way to beat pikes is manouver. They are too tough head on.

If you need something else to stand up against Pike:

Armoured Spears are down a POA at Impact against Pike, but even in Melee. The points savings lets you have more frontage or have third-rankers to fill in losses and keep the POA, while Pike usually does not have a 5th rank to fill in losses.

Armoured Legionaries and equivalents are chancier, since the Legionaries' Swordsmen POA is cancelled in Melee against Steady Pikemen.

Dismounted knights are OK against pike

A POA down but quality up at impact and even POA and quality up in melee. The trouble is they are expensive.

Superior armoured heavy weapon foot are probably the best there is to take on pike but not fighting them is a sound plan most of the time.

As ever, try to fight the stuff you think you can beat, and try to skirmish the stuff you know you can't.

hammy wrote:Dismounted knights are OK against pike

A POA down but quality up at impact and even POA and quality up in melee. The trouble is they are expensive.

Superior armoured heavy weapon foot are probably the best there is to take on pike but not fighting them is a sound plan most of the time.

How are they a POA up. How is anything ever a POA up. (Unless its armoured pike (which doesn't exist) against protected pike.) The Foot Kn get better armour and Hvy Wpn. The Pike get pike + pike if 4 ranks and steady. There are far more cost effective ways to be a POA down or even.

even POA and quality up in melee

Quality up in melee, not PoA up.

player wrote:What are the best troops for fighting against pikes (aside from other pikes)? Or just avoid them?

When the Pike are tightly packed, little can beat them frontally (armour and heavy weapon or spear can work). The key is to work the flanks until the pike blocks spread out (or pull them out of the line by tempting with LF). isolated pike blocks still get good factors but few dice so the overlaps tend to be lethal to them.

Armoured superior foot in 6's or more, and armed with anything you like have a reasonable punt. You just need a POA of your own (ie armour), superiority (half a POA plus the ability to survive some cohesion tests) and some staying power.

As soon as the pikes lose a base they start to wobble, as soon as they lose cohesion they are going down....

Maneuver is not a great way to beat them as their ability (when in 8's) to turn 90 degrees in their own footprint and then move full distance means they maneuver better than most HF in the game.

Poor LF bow,one on one I guarantee to take the pike down
David

double ranked LF Bow. Send the rest of your army after everything else

anthony

player wrote:What are the best troops for fighting against pikes (aside from other pikes)? Or just avoid them?

Lf sling would be even better, as cheap as 2pts if poor, 4 if average.

Also worth remembering that if you can split up the pike block and take on chunks of it sepreately you can defeat it in detail. I played in a 900pt tourney last year with Delhi Sultanates and the Unprotected, Average Bow took out more than one pike block. The pikes would get into situations of sending a single 8 element BG of pk after an 8 element BG of bows, get shot up on the way in and lack the oomph in impact to inflict serious damage. Then we would get melees with the bow getting double dice vs. + or ++ POAs for the pike which the pike would lose...

I have superior roman legionaries defeat my pikes head-on rather regularly. On a broad front the romans clean-up.
I think it's a combination of superior rerolls and the fact that if the romans roll bad and DISR, they are down 1 die and can usually hang on a few turns. If the pike roll bad and DISR they lose a die and a POA, next turn they always FRAG. Soon the whole line collapses.
Bad news.

The problem I find with Superior Roman Legionaries who are Skilled Swordsmen in this circumstance is their cost. Each frontage is 28 points against the Average pike frontage of 24 points. Along a broad frontage you will often find your line of legions overlapped on each end given the total cost differential.

How many generals and what size units are in the middle of the opposing lines matters also given the ability of generals to swing the initial contact between such units with additional quality re-rolls.

I've had high powered legions meeting pike go either way, and sometimes a big mixed result where some of each rout.

The prob, as mentioned, when using Romans against pike armies, is that you pay points for those skilled swords. Don't you wish you could get superior swords??!!??

Plus, there is usually nothing in the Seleucid army that skilled swords gets a bonus fighting against.

I know the superior is nice, and battle-saving at times, but I usually go average swords and hope the extra BG or two makes up for lack of superior skill.

madaxeman wrote:
Maneuver is not a great way to beat them as their ability (when in 8's) to turn 90 degrees in their own footprint and then move full distance means they maneuver better than most HF in the game.

A fact that is a bit against reallity IMO, since even for drilled pikemen (such as Phillip V's or Perseus) such a move in combat was not possible.
Examples in Kunos Kefalai, Thermolylai etc

This is just my own personal, anecdotal experience, so please take this with a grain of salt.

My Macedonians/ Early Successors frequently encounter some flavor of Romans (in all their incarnations). I can honestly say that my pike blocks frequently loose to legions.

These sort of battles frequently end up with our 2 sides squaring off and rolling NOT to charge. At this point, his Superior and Elite status frequently forces me to make that charge. We are even on impact. So, we both get 4 dice and his re-rolls will put him at a slight advantage; I know this is not a certainty, but it can push him just over the edge to win in impact. Most likely, he will not loose and not have to take a casualty roll. Unlikely but very probable, I will have to take a Cohesion test at -1 and need to make a death roll against a 1,2, or 3. This becomes even more likely if he throws in a commander into the battle. Sure I can have a commander fighting for my side as well, but when a roman needs to hit on a 4,5, or 6 and gets to re-roll a 1,2 (and sometimes, even a 3), I certainly think that he is at a pretty good, albeit, slight advantage. I, personally, see this very slight advantage from the impact phase as crucial and frequently inevitable in my own downfall.

Next is melee, if I am lucky, I'll have an overlap on one side, but not always. So, assume the best and I get 6 dice while he only gets 4. He will always have better armor, so my chance lies with the previous impact. If I became disrupted or if I lost a stand, then I'm going to get chopped up, eventually. If I passed both rolls from the previous turn, then I have a POA. Now, assuming pure averages, I will get 3 hits, while his 4 dice (and re-rolls) will give him 2 solid hits and a modest chance at a tie. Everywhere else, the fight begins to look like a a 1 on 1 battle and we see pure ties (I get 2 hits, he gets a very good chance at 2 hits as well).

My buddy who plays the Romans, has frequently said that he wins IF he beats me in the impact phase; otherwise it is going to grind out and be inconclusive. In my experiences, however, his Roman infantry will win in 1 or 2 fights and tie everywhere else. Then while my pike are holding off the legions in several locations, those 1-2 BGs who lost a stand or dropped a cohesion level are going to get chopped up and quickly. Once they are blown away, the Romans can turn a flank and begin to chop up the rest of my phalanx.

Many people say that pike are more points efficient, so this is a justifiable outcome. That somehow, the rest of my points are beating up on some flank or other. However, I have frequently found that I can only build 14 BGs. The Romans I encounter are frequently the same size and sometimes even bigger in BGs, not stands! I have even encountered 16 and 17 BGs of Romans against my phalanx. So, even though my heavy foot is cheaper than his, my cavalry and whatnot tends to be more expensive and I end up running out of BGs that are capable of flanking his wall of swords. Somehow, I have experienced a loss at every single game against his Romans.

This is NOT a complaint. I have beaten him, just not with a similarly, era armies. My Later Crusaders (knight heavy) and Saracens (shooting cavalry) have placed their lives in their religious faith and routed those very same Romans quite effectively.

So, IMO, what beats pike blocks? Heavy foot, Armored, Superior (or Elite) Drilled, Impact Foot, (skilled) Swordsmen seem to be the very thing that I dread. Oh! That and anything that can effectively get around and attack the flanks or shoot me to pieces (shooting cavalry armies anyone?)...

Enjoy my limited perspective, for whatever it is worth...

if you can force pikes into non-open terrain they start to lose badly. They lose dice and will not count as steady for trying to cancel the sword POA. IF something gets on their flank its bad news and quick death for the pikes. I have had problems from stupid lights with javs that force the dreaded cohesion test and I go disrupted. Shooting enemies are a pike blocks worst enemy, that and being pulled out of the line by a failed impetuous charge roll and ending up in contact with your enemy who probably has the ability to overlap you and get those extra dice.

Pike armies tend not to have the frontage that a non-pike army has and that makes flanks more vulnerable, and then as I said before you risk the old rear or flank charge that spells disaster.

gelin wrote:

madaxeman wrote:
Maneuver is not a great way to beat them as their ability (when in 8's) to turn 90 degrees in their own footprint and then move full distance means they maneuver better than most HF in the game.

A fact that is a bit against reallity IMO, since even for drilled pikemen (such as Phillip V's or Perseus) such a move in combat was not possible.
Examples in Kunos Kefalai, Thermolylai etc

True, but the only way Madaxeman's tactic works is with nothing to the pikes front. Approach them at right angles and someone will get a flank. And the pike ceases to be manuverable.