Slitherine

The Negoro-gumi were an order of (more secular and martial than spiritual) monks based at Negoroji Temple in Kii. They copied their first Portuguese firearms in 1543 and became major gunmakers and famed for their teppo weapons skills. They are noted as fielding a force of 300 teppo that was credited with defeating a force under Oda Nobunaga's brother in the 1570s, and were allied with the Tokugawa before Hideyoshi largely destroyed their temple in 1585.

300 is not a lot compared with a temple population of 30,000 or more. I don't know the number of less skilled firearms users they may have had, but the information I have for the daimyos' forces through the 1560s is percentages in the single to low double digits as an army percentage.

The Ikko ikki may have been ahead of the curve as a rule, but even so that means perhaps one optional teppo BG in the 50s (to more bow), one compulsory and one optional in the 60s, and up to the 24 bases starting in the 70s and until their final suppression in 1585.

The majority of monks and others are armed with close combat weapons including yari and naginata, plus some mounted and peasants with other equipment.

I also suggest the Warrior Monk Allies list might merit some teppo from the 1560s.

In relation to the number of Superior troops in the list RBS asked:

Are we sure that so many should be?

To which PR has replied:

I think the answer is yes (but I would say that), they seem to have more than held their own against the Samurai armies of the time and the religious fanaticism associated was real rather than exaggerated and gave them a morale (and perhaps moral) superiority. I think also in gaming terms it gives an unusual army. Very much equivelant to the Arab Conquest in terms of the effect the religious dimension has on the classification of their Quality in FoG R terms.

Some comments from Paul on Mike's post.

MikeK wrote:The Negoro-gumi were an order of (more secular and martial than spiritual) monks based at Negoroji Temple in Kii. They copied their first Portuguese firearms in 1543 and became major gunmakers and famed for their teppo weapons skills. They are noted as fielding a force of 300 teppo that was credited with defeating a force under Oda Nobunaga's brother in the 1570s, and were allied with the Tokugawa before Hideyoshi largely destroyed their temple in 1585.

PR - There does seem to be some difficulty in differentiating between true Sohei and some of the Ikko Ikki (or Ikko ikki like) factions, particularly those based on temple communities (and the Ikko Ikki were of course not a unified force). In theory you could have a third list of those group falling somewhere between the stereotypical Ikko Ikki and the stereotypical Sohei. Also you could play tunes on the different Ikko Ikki forces/factions. I went for a simplified approach - Monks are Monks and Ikko Ikki are Ikko Ikki.

300 is not a lot compared with a temple population of 30,000 or more. I don't know the number of less skilled firearms users they may have had, but the information I have for the daimyos' forces through the 1560s is percentages in the single to low double digits as an army percentage.

PR - IRRC I got a figure of 3000 Ikko Ikki Arquebusiers from one of the Ospreys, which gives you about 12 bases. I increased it to 24 as otherwise I thought the ratio of Teppo men to Close fighters was wrong.

The Ikko ikki may have been ahead of the curve as a rule, but even so that means perhaps one optional teppo BG in the 50s (to more bow), one compulsory and one optional in the 60s, and up to the 24 bases starting in the 70s and until their final suppression in 1585.

PR - Well yes, I looked at trying to split the number of Teppo men into time periods but gave it up as false precision. Basically my assumption is that if you have a lot of Teppo men you are a late (in terms of Teppo use) Ikko Ikki army and if you have only the minmium you are an early army (again in terms of Teppo use). Thinking about it again (and I considered this) you could argue that it should be 0-24, not 6-24. At the time I was looking at it from a persective of creating a typical Ikko Ikki force, and that would have included bang bang troops. I wouldn't be uncomfortable with 0-24.

The majority of monks and others are armed with close combat weapons including yari and naginata, plus some mounted and peasants with other equipment.

PR - Just to say that for the Monks some horse were clearly still about, cannot find anything about there being enough (if any) mtd Ikko ikki to figure in an army scalewise other than some commanders were horsed (for obvious reasons) Peasants, again we have them in the Ikko Ikki list, there is an argument for having peasant like elements in early Sohei forces, but by this stage they were pretty homogenous. Again you have the issue of those Ikko Ikki like groups who were at the "Monkish" end of the spectrum.

I also suggest the Warrior Monk Allies list might merit some teppo from the 1560s.

PR - Same points as earlier, I think these fall into the Ikko Ikki types and not the monks.

I defer to expertise on the spectrum of Sohei to Ikko-Ikki.

Fanaticism without superb martial skills suggests Superior but without the best equipment. Are all the Ikko-Ikki equivalent to Spartans at their prime?

At an extreme, I've used Superior troops with no capabilities in a scenario and they worked as intended - they were resilient but not overpowering, so the Average opponents had to kill them to break them before they started to crumble themselves from a bad run of dice.

On the same issue, Townsmen and peasants as Average Mob seems a bit tough - if they are true enthusiasts, shouldn't they be among the core troops? If more spirited than usual, Poor Light Spear provides some bite. Also note that MF provide support but Mob don't - depends on what you are representing in army structure and deployment.

Basically my assumption is that if you have a lot of Teppo men you are a late (in terms of Teppo use) Ikko Ikki army and if you have only the minmium you are an early army (again in terms of Teppo use).

I understand the logic as the Ikko Ikki list only goes to 1585 and the shooters will be excessive only at the start. The samurai side needs some breakpoints to organize the ramp up from novelty to predominance even without daimyo-specific numbers.

For a starter army, I think 3 Teppo BGs of 6 each is a reasonable number. Works?

Why 1552 in particular as the Teppo shooters start date? I was thinking 1549 on a first use argument or a little later to allow greater dissemination, and having the very small number available at that time being represented by an optional single specialist BG of 4-6 MF arquebus or 4 LF arquebus or even musket.

In terms of equipment, I think Teppo as arquebus works for this list (particularly given the Superior grading!) Does the capability need to be the same for Japanese and Ikko Ikki through 1585, given the latter have the Superior boost and tactics may well have differed? What were Ikko Ikki fire tactics like?

I think the Japanese Shot needs to be Musket* by the 1590s (TBD another thread) but this would allow 1585 as a breakpoint, although I was thinking some years earlier might be better.

What say you?

MikeK wrote:

In terms of equipment, I think Teppo as arquebus works for this list (particularly given the Superior grading!) Does the capability need to be the same for Japanese and Ikko Ikki through 1585, given the latter have the Superior boost and tactics may well have differed? What were Ikko Ikki fire tactics like?

The Ikko Ikki tactics were copied by the teppo equipped ashigaru - i.e. volley fire - when the teoop became more important in samurai armies.

I think the Japanese Shot needs to be Musket* by the 1590s (TBD another thread) but this would allow 1585 as a breakpoint, although I was thinking some years earlier might be better.

What say you?

I see no reason that Arquebus isn't suitable for Japanese armies for the whole of the period.

The Ikko Ikki will be scary no matter what they bring to the party. They should get up close as fast as possible.

nikgaukroger wrote:I see no reason that Arquebus isn't suitable for Japanese armies for the whole of the period.

I see enough to need a sorted list. Will finish up posting on the Ming first though.

Mike - I've passed your earlier reply to Paul to see if he has any further comments. We may have to wait a bit though as he has a new-born to cope with

Have sent some comments to Nick, which he'll post. V rare visit to the Forum and now I must go