Slitherine

Does anybody have information on if they used flags/ banners for standards or did they use the horse tails? If anyone can point me a the direction of information on anything about this army it would be useful.

BlackPrince wrote:Does anybody have information on if they used flags/ banners for standards or did they use the horse tails? If anyone can point me a the direction of information on anything about this army it would be useful.

I suspect the answer is: Yes; along with windsocks/dragons.

I doubt there is definitive proof for many of these polities. I would look to the period, and mimick the surrounding nomad states, or patron civilized states that are contemporary with your city state. Look to the dominant ethnicity within your city state and copy what their 'barbarous' cousins were using, is my advice.

BlackPrince wrote:Does anybody have information on if they used flags/ banners for standards or did they use the horse tails? If anyone can point me a the direction of information on anything about this army it would be useful.

A generic answer would be : they used both.

Which state? When? The list covers several distinct cultures.

I was thinking of the western states such as Sogdiana.

The various Sarmatian tribes, the Parthians and the Sassanids all used draco standards with some regularity. Some of those standards were little more than colorful windsocks, by the way. The draco was carried as far as Britain apparently, and makes an appearance in variant forms in Carolingian art and as late as the Bayeux tapestry in the west. To the east, the Georgians, IIRC, used a lionheaded style of draco windsock in the late dark ages - early medieval period. They are close to your area. Working off of memory here as my books are all scattered, packed or otherwise unavailable.

I think the draco style banners would be a reasonable hypothesis as the least unlikely for the region and time. Less barbarous than horse or wolf tails, but still somewhat tribal and feral.

Just my thoughts and speculations without hard evidence. Seems to me the Osprey on nomadic horsearchers had some notes on the subject. I will try to look it up tomorrow.

I have just discovered the title horse archers of the steppe or simular such title but it is out of stock. I am going have to wait for it to be reprinted.

BlackPrince wrote:I have just discovered the title horse archers of the steppe or simular such title but it is out of stock. I am going have to wait for it to be reprinted.

IIRC it isn't very good I'm afraid ...

BlackPrince wrote:I was thinking of the western states such as Sogdiana.

Sogdian armies were noted for large banners. Long contact with Chinese and Tibetan influences made banners with borders and complex shapes popular. Some were religious icons but most appear to be a solid coloured panel with text in it. The ČĀKAR troops used horse tail standards at a troop level (100-300 men).

does that help?

tadamson wrote:

BlackPrince wrote:I was thinking of the western states such as Sogdiana.

Sogdian armies were noted for large banners. Long contact with Chinese and Tibetan influences made banners with borders and complex shapes popular. Some were religious icons but most appear to be a solid coloured panel with text in it. The ČĀKAR troops used horse tail standards at a troop level (100-300 men).

does that help?

Yes it does help thanks. As from my reading it would appear the Western states butted up against the Persian Empire (?) I was thinking about using a mix of Turkish and Persian figures and some banners and now a some Chinese styled banners . -comments?

nikgaukroger wrote:

BlackPrince wrote:I have just discovered the title horse archers of the steppe or simular such title but it is out of stock. I am going have to wait for it to be reprinted.

IIRC it isn't very good I'm afraid ...

Nik thanks for the tip I will save my money.

BlackPrince wrote:

tadamson wrote:

BlackPrince wrote:I was thinking of the western states such as Sogdiana.

Sogdian armies were noted for large banners. Long contact with Chinese and Tibetan influences made banners with borders and complex shapes popular. Some were religious icons but most appear to be a solid coloured panel with text in it. The ČĀKAR troops used horse tail standards at a troop level (100-300 men).

does that help?

Yes it does help thanks. As from my reading it would appear the Western states butted up against the Persian Empire (?) I was thinking about using a mix of Turkish and Persian figures and some banners and now a some Chinese styled banners . -comments?

Well the murals from Afrasiab are a useful guide. http://www.orientarch.uni-halle.de/ca/afras/general.htm and Azarpay's book is useful http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KVSP ... &q&f=false

Early Sogdian troops may have looked like those in the Orlat Plaques http://www.transoxiana.org/Eran/Articles/mode.html