Slitherine

I guess, that soviet industry evacuation from western regions to Siberia should be somehow modelled, for example with lower starting war effort. The point is that most siberian plants were evacuated from west and they didn't realy worked since the start of war, so soviet union should have some serious PP issues during 41 campaign, It will be historical realistic and it will prevent axis from being stopped at Dnepr position, like it happens often. Competent allied player have all units to establish this front even before USSR DoWed and already ready to rail them, so it takes ~3 turns to make this tough defensive line, and your massive PP allows you to reinforce it with up to 4 corps/turn. And when you stop axis at this positions, you have all the winter to produce even more troops, and make even 3 lines front. I played both factions, probably doing something wrong, but always see ostfront stuck somewhere around this positions, and one day soviets just make to many units and strike back.

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Here is a picture of USSR forces before axis invasion, to make it i just started hotseat game without any turns made.
So we have 2 corps in queue, 10 corps, 1 mech, planes and numberless garrisons at rear areas.
Also at least couple of mechs and probably gar near borders supposed to escape, after 2-3 turns here will be sturdy defence at rivers. All that axis player can do - reach this positions with his fast moving troops, but this way he risks to lose assault troops for nothing, because USSR have some tanks and planes ready to destroy/cut off this fast groups. 1st turn after DoWed i will purchase 3-4 corps(depends on PP after railing and repairs), next turn - 4 aswell.
Also axis can make major assault either north of pripyat swamps, or south, so you have to reinforce heavily only one sector of soviet positions, sector where you face minor attack can be secured with 1 line front even including garrisons at line. (on this example i prepare southern area for major attack, because it have clear terrain and here axis can reach some needed oil, while northern sector have rugged terrain and low PP cities. So yes, i think something should be done with USSR PP and/or pre-war deployment places, because afrer you master this strategy its really almost nothing about axis or allied player's skill.

A competent German player, attacking in Jun (2 or 22nd) should reach the Dnepr river east of Minsk on the third turn of Barbarossa. The russian readiness is so poor at this time that they have no chance of holding a line even if they manage to form one. I'm happy to show you how this is done

Russian production is only 50% in June and rises 11% after DOW, then +7% in Sep 10, +22% in Nov 9, +6% in Dec 19 and +7% in Mar 9. Those rises seem to simulate the relocation of factories in my mind and arent too drastic. The secret obviously is to take as many russian cities by the Nov 9 turn, just as the +22% is about to kick and the weather is likely to go poor.

Having played the russian player quite a few times, 1941 can be quite challenging in the new GS mod against a good axis player...

Just for info, below is the situation at the start of the third turn on a Barbarossa (in which I attacked in May);

Note the readiness of the unit in Kiev that hasnt moved - its still only 42%. The four ARM units at Minsk are around 80% and will receive air units in their location this turn - hence they will have air support plus 2 MECH and an INF to force a crossing of the Dnepr on the 4th turn if the Dnepr was defended. A russian defence would be a recipe for heavy casualties which the axis player would love.

As a note, the russian player in this game launched a major offensive against my lead ARM units near Bryansk three turns after this turn and lost ~30 INF in very bloody battles in the ensuing turns. Although German casualties were high, the russian player had little to attack me with in the winter of 1941 and ultimately conceded defeat in late 1943....

When I play the Axis ALL Russian front line units are either destroyed, surrounded or within contact of a Axis unit after the first turn. I even manage to penetrate the front line to annihilate some of the nearest rear mech and corps units. Russia loses 30 efficiency on the first turn of Barbarossa and they can't counter attack or hold any line when they're so weak. If you're moving instead of resting you won't gain efficiency. So either you defend at the Dnepr and lose these units or you retreat far to the east and have recovered units for a possible winter offensive.

If you defend in the west then you will hold the Germans at bay for awhile, but you lose your units and you can't launch a winter offensive. So you have to decide how much terrain to cede in 1941 in order to save your army. My opinion is that it's more important to keep your army than the ground. You will lose that ground in 1942 anyway if you don't have a strong enough army to contain the 1942 major offensive.

I'm not very afraid of Russian armor units in 1941. With a 30 efficiency loss they will not inflict a lot of damage. If they're used to damage German armor or kill German infantry then you can quickly destroy them and have a much easier time later. What I DO fear is a Russian player who saves his armor and most of his mech in 1941 along with all air units. He will then build more armor and mech and have a formidable rear defense line in 1942 that can launch a strong offensive late 1942. So in order to keep the Russians under control you need to pull their teeth (air) and claws (armor and mech). Then the Russian bear can only roar instead of inflicting harm.

Whilst still a beginner, I definately think we have a long way to go to see if the Russians are too powerful - I think quite the opposite, but I haven't yet completed a game where I knew what I was doing as the Axis!

As I learn (slowly, only finished two games- both lost) - I can tell you that I can't see how any competant Axis player can be held at 'the' River line.

What experience will tell us if the good players can win against other good players as the Allies - time will tell, but my money is on the Axis.

That's definitely what I've found in several games I've got going as the Axis player. IMHO I'm getting more competent as the Axis player. So if I launch Barbarossa on June 2 (without bungling France before that) then I can easily breach the Dvina and Dnieper if the Russian player decides to retreat. At the start of '42 things look good for the Axis is Russia as well, as the Luftwaffe still has air superiority. It's even better if you can kill any Russian FTRs or ARMs in '41.

Looking through the posts it is not clear to me if/how the historical transport of Russian industry to the east is handled in the game. The designers seem to have thought of everything, so is the temporary drop in PPs due to railing industry away from the front modeled?

If not, perhaps something to consider for CEAW 2? Just as the Russian player can decide whether to defend further west or fall back to the Dneiper, perhaps the Russian player can also decide to take a temporary loss of PPs for a set number of turns in order to move its industry to the east with a corresponding drop in PPs for western cities and an increase in eastern cities once the transfer is complete?

Recognizing that the ideas are the easy part, implementing them is a whole other kettle of fish...

As to whether the Russians have too many PPs, I'm too new at this to have an opinion, but the question of what to do with the PPs they do receive is what separates the stronger from the weaker players in my limited experience. The allied players I'm playing that focus on Russian forces falling back and creating a double defensive line of infantry are giving me a devil of a time. Those that elect to spend early PPs on armor and planes can't seem to stem the German '41 offensive so well. The variability is what makes this game so fun.

Stauffenberg wrote:When I play the Axis ALL Russian front line units are either destroyed, surrounded or within contact of a Axis unit after the first turn. I even manage to penetrate the front line to annihilate some of the nearest rear mech and corps units. Russia loses 30 efficiency on the first turn of Barbarossa and they can't counter attack or hold any line when they're so weak. If you're moving instead of resting you won't gain efficiency. So either you defend at the Dnepr and lose these units or you retreat far to the east and have recovered units for a possible winter offensive.

If you defend in the west then you will hold the Germans at bay for awhile, but you lose your units and you can't launch a winter offensive. So you have to decide how much terrain to cede in 1941 in order to save your army. My opinion is that it's more important to keep your army than the ground. You will lose that ground in 1942 anyway if you don't have a strong enough army to contain the 1942 major offensive.

I'm not very afraid of Russian armor units in 1941. With a 30 efficiency loss they will not inflict a lot of damage. If they're used to damage German armor or kill German infantry then you can quickly destroy them and have a much easier time later. What I DO fear is a Russian player who saves his armor and most of his mech in 1941 along with all air units. He will then build more armor and mech and have a formidable rear defense line in 1942 that can launch a strong offensive late 1942. So in order to keep the Russians under control you need to pull their teeth (air) and claws (armor and mech). Then the Russian bear can only roar instead of inflicting harm.

Youre right on the mark there... But against an experienced opponent this is not possible to do. From experience it doesnt matter if the Russians let the germans have all territory to Voronezh and Moscow, since after that it is very difficult for the germans to cross the 3-supply zone line... In order to cross it, you need to have had MAJOR successes in 1941 or else totald efeat will be the result since the Russian player will easily stop you in 1942 on the Saratov river line.

Russia is very difficult to kill in GS, like historically.

Well, I have to add, that in game against AI (that have totally no idea about GS, since it was not changed as far as i know) I managed to capture Omsk destroying USSR only at spring of 1944. So I guess its impossible against competent human player.

I'm actually playing gchristie as Allies against his Axis attack and we were discussing how easy it seems to form a Russian defense line along the Deniper/Volga line and stopping the Axis advance in 41.

As the Russians I felt I had a lot of points to play with and just pumped out mostly infantry and a few Armor units until DOW, deploying them along that river line along with the armor units to behind the infantry. Seemed like I could get a lot of infantry formed up before he hit the line. I lost units when he did but he could not break past an effectively double line i had at the river.

One thing I noticed in the screen shot is very little Axis infantry, from what I've seen playing others, the Axis seem to have a boat load more infantry to cover the advancing Armor but the Armor isn't as advanced, maybe that is the problem?

well you can screw Barbarossa as the Axis if you go to weak or to late

I am a beginner, two games completed, both lost - I would be happy to demonstrate a more effective Barbarossa for you

also, deploying lots of units before Barbarossa is a bad idea for the Soviets, better to wait and not get the effectiveness penalty

richardsd wrote:also, deploying lots of units before Barbarossa is a bad idea for the Soviets, better to wait and not get the effectiveness penalty

Hmmm, not so sure about this. As the allies I buy Russian infantry after a couple of research breakthroughs but in advance of Barbarossa and drop them well back from the front along that damnable Dneiper River. Dropping them early allows you to begin to set up the double line, something that is harder to do if you try to drop them all at once. Yes, they take the effectiveness drop once Germany attacks, but it takes the Germans 3 turns to reach them by which time my commanders have helped them recover and with a double line they are pretty tough to break through.

This is what my worthy opponent has done, and I take my hat off to him as his 1941 winter offensive is taking my forces apart quite handily. I've done a fairly good job of concentrating my wolf packs on the Murmansk convoys but it hasn't put a dent in his PPs apparently.

But it's all good fun and I am not criticizing the designers' intent or the game balance, far from it. I just need a bit more experience, and then "Simon Bar Sinister will rule the world!"

Perhaps you will have more luck against Xriz than I.

Learning all the time....

Regards,

Underdog

Russian leaders won't help the first few turns because they only increase the max efficiency the unit can have, not the rate they regain efficiency.

With the 30 efficiency drop at the start of Barbarossa and a more forward Russian setup it means the Germans can crush most of the front line units and engage many of the closest rear units. It means they can't be railed to safety.

With a 30 efficiency drop it means you can get the unit down to red efficiency with a single airstrike. So the key to the Axis attacks is to have a healthy airforce and use both fighters and bombers for airstrikes. When you get the units down to red efficiency you can attack with only receiving 0-1 losses and get a retreat result most of the time.

Even if the Russians manage to get a double defense line at the Dnepr it means that you can get there while this line is still quite weakened by the surprise efficiency loss. When you attack you try to begin at a bulge so you have 3 units against it. With 1-2 tac bombers you should get the losses down so much so you can easily finish it with 2-3 land attacks. Then you can attack the next unit behind the Dnepr by first and airstrike and then sending an armor unit into the vacated hex behind the Dnepr. This unit will not attack across a river and most likely destroy the defender. If not you use a tac bomber to finish off the depleted defender.

You repeat this process until you run out of air units. It should be possible to get 5-6 units across the Dnepr this way the first turn. Most of them will be mech and armor units. The Russians can counter attack, but with the low efficiency they won't get high losses. Maybe you kill an armor or two if you commit your armor and mech, but then these will all be destroyed the following Axis turn.

I think the Axis player benefits the most from fighting heavy battles in 1941 when the Russian units are much weaker than the German units. Both sides will take losses, but the Germans can build 1 armor and 1 mech per turn to replace losses to their spearheads. The German player's main job in Russia in 1941 is to destroy as many units as possible, NOT to gain as much territory as possible. The reason is that if you decimate the Russian forces you won't have to fear the first winter offensive and you can have a devastating Axis offensive in 1942.

The outcome of the entire war is decided in 1942, not in 1941. If the Germans can destroy enough Russian units in 1942 then the Russians won't be able to launch a major 1943 offensive and the Axis player can fend off long enough to keep Berlin till May 1945.

When the Russians get above a certain number of units and build air and armor units instead of corps units to replace critical losses, then you're about to lose as the Axis. So you have to keep inflicting heavy losses upon the Russians in both 1941 and 1942.

The most difficult Russian players to meet are the ones who simply run away in 1941 and let you get to the Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov line without taking much losses at all. Then they can strike back during the winter winter and retreat east of Axis 3-supply line in 1942, thus giving up Leningrad and Moscow. Attacking the Russian double defense line so far east is not fun for the Axis. The Germans have -1 movement, can only repair 3 steps per turn, regenerate efficiency slower etc.

You will be amazed to see how quickly the Russians can regain lost territory once the Axis line crumbles. The key is to start early enough, like late 1943.

Defending behind the Dnepr will probably work for an Allied player against an Axis player who can't use his air, armor and mech units to achieve breakthroughs. You need to play GS for quite awhile before you learn how to attack in the best possible manner.

Try to defend behind the Dnepr against players like Joe and Supermax and you will see then in Omsk late 1942. They're experts with making attacks that can
surround a big part of your forces, thus making them out of supply. Units that are out of supply can't help the Russians for long. If the Russian defense line crumbles in 1942 then the Axis can move really fast towards Omsk and won't have to stop during the winter. They can just keep moving to deny the Russians a chance to regroup.

The Allied player must know that he can trade space for time in Russia. Losing the Russian army is what gets you killed there, not losing some extra cities in 1941.

gchristie wrote:

richardsd wrote:also, deploying lots of units before Barbarossa is a bad idea for the Soviets, better to wait and not get the effectiveness penalty

Hmmm, not so sure about this. As the allies I buy Russian infantry after a couple of research breakthroughs but in advance of Barbarossa and drop them well back from the front along that damnable Dneiper River. Dropping them early allows you to begin to set up the double line, something that is harder to do if you try to drop them all at once. Yes, they take the effectiveness drop once Germany attacks, but it takes the Germans 3 turns to reach them by which time my commanders have helped them recover and with a double line they are pretty tough to break through.

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I'd second that. I done both variants and found it's best to start building Russian units in 1941 and start placing them as they are produced. It looks like the loss of efficiency due to the DOW has a similar affect to placing newly-built units, so the efficiency gain of placing units after the DOW seems small to me. So all you end up doing is running out of citites to place your units if you have saved them up.

Also its adviceable to have some PPs to buy good (best) soviet commander as soon as USSR DoWed. Default one is not good enough to be placed in main assault sector, but someone like Zhukov will likely make your troops "white" during this 3-4 turns axis need to reach your lines.

Plaid wrote:Also its adviceable to have some PPs to buy good (best) soviet commander as soon as USSR DoWed. Default one is not good enough to be placed in main assault sector, but someone like Zhukov will likely make your troops "white" during this 3-4 turns axis need to reach your lines.

Except that Stauffenberg points out the commanders don't speed up effectiveness recovery, they only increase your troops' maximum effectiveness. I still like to have them ready to drop prior to Barbarossa, so I don't forget to recruit them.

Still wondering about Plaid's initial question about Russia moving its industry east and what effect that has on production output in the time the factories are railing to the Urals.

Regards.

gchristie wrote:

Plaid wrote:Also its adviceable to have some PPs to buy good (best) soviet commander as soon as USSR DoWed. Default one is not good enough to be placed in main assault sector, but someone like Zhukov will likely make your troops "white" during this 3-4 turns axis need to reach your lines.

Except that Stauffenberg points out the commanders don't speed up effectiveness recovery, they only increase your troops' maximum effectiveness. I still like to have them ready to drop prior to Barbarossa, so I don't forget to recruit them.

Still wondering about Plaid's initial question about Russia moving its industry east and what effect that has on production output in the time the factories are railing to the Urals.

Regards.

I don't see that Stauffenberg said this. Commanders definitely do help units gain effectiveness recovery every turn, and they also increase maximum efficiency.