Slitherine

Hello
I am going to paint an Mid-Republican Roman army to fight against my Hannibal's Carthaginian.
I would wanted information on colors:
Tunic of Velites/Hastati/Principes/Triari : colors, is there an harmonization inside same BG?
Shields of Velites/Hastati/Principes/Triari : colors, harmonization inside same BG, with pictures or not?

Thanks

I'm no expert but I've seen this question asked a few times previously on TMP, and the answer is : it's up to you. There's very little evidence to go on so do what you think looks best. Have a look at how other people have done it for inspiration.

Hey! I'm painting my own Mid Republican Roman based on what I think every rank had access to.

First, the tunics:

- Hastati & Velites: White or Ivory. These guys had very little resources, so I don't think they would be expending too much on dying their clothes, so they would be regular, natural color tunics.
- Principes: Personally, I kinda like some uniform look in my armies, so I'm painting all my Principes with vermillion tunics. this is not mandatory, though, you can paint them all different if you feel like it.
- Triarii: Again, I looked for a uniform look for my Triarii, so I'm painting them all blue. Again, this is not mandatory.
- Cavalry: I'm painting this guys all with different colors, as I think they like to show off their wealth, just like your average medieval knight.
- Commanders: As for the commanders, I painted one of the sub-commanders with a crimson tunic, the other one I haven't decided yet. My C-in-C will have a Bishop purple tunic.

As for the shields, I'm using whichever color I happen to like in the moment. For playability's Sake, I'm painting all shields in a given BG with the same color, I just finished a 4-bases Hastati & Principes BG all with blue shields and a 2-bases Triarii BG all with green shields. I'll post some pics of them soon

Probably worth remembering that (dark) red paint is among the cheapest that you can make and can be done from readily made ingredients. Most of the documentation on barns dates from much later in than our period, but the basics that went into "barn red" would have been around (blood, iron oxide, linseed oil, etc) and it is a useful wood protective/preservative.

I don't have the exact quotation with me (I can check for it if you need it), but according to Polybius, Hasdrubal, before Metaurus, was able to know that some new soldiers from different legions had been brought to follow him just taking a look at their shields from the distance. What does it mean? I am not certain, but it could be that shields had similar colours or shield patterns.

Regarding tunics. i would go for something simple except for the cavalrymen. If I were going to battle, something very messy, I would not be using my dyed cloths but some cheap ones in natural colours (white or ivory as it has been said). All this is based more in especulation than in anything else as other people has already said. I like the idea of painting shields in different colours or with variations to give the flavour of a more "amateur" army where every soldier carried their own weapons.

Strategos69 wrote: If I were going to battle, something very messy, I would not be using my dyed cloths but some cheap ones in natural colours (white or ivory as it has been said).

I think that is a rather modern attitude and in ancient times you would actually wear your best kit to impess the enemy (and the gods) - for example Roman centurions wore their phalerae (excuse spelling) which have no practcal value other than to exhibit your prowess.

nikgaukroger wrote: I think that is a rather modern attitude and in ancient times you would actually wear your best kit to impess the enemy (and the gods) - for example Roman centurions wore their phalerae (excuse spelling) which have no practcal value other than to exhibit your prowess.

Because nothing says "I'm going to beat you down like the dog you are" like wearing the medals and awards for having done the same to others in the past!

/Paul

nikgaukroger wrote:.. for example Roman centurions wore their phalerae (excuse spelling) which have no practcal value other than to exhibit your prowess.

Hey, Moderator.... !

Virtually every army in the FoG period is on record as wearing their best clothes for combat.

Romans are pretty much unbleached linen/wool if they weren't expecting trouble, dyed with madder (red/orange) if they were, perhaps with their officers bleached white.

I think I read somewhere once that classical armies once they decided to give battle would spend some time in preparation cleaning themselves and their clothes to look their best.

It is always worth remembering that so much of ancient warfare was morale as opposed to physical that looking impressive, confident, well equipped, etc. was probably very important.

Phaze_of_the_Moon wrote:Virtually every army in the FoG period is on record as wearing their best clothes for combat.

Romans are pretty much unbleached linen/wool if they weren't expecting trouble, dyed with madder (red/orange) if they were, perhaps with their officers bleached white.

That is a possibility, but I wouldn't state it as fact - Roman tunic colous is an area of much discussion

nah... just go for "hollywood" red.... everyone knows they are fine sources of historical fact... Atleast the army would look good on the table

Phaze_of_the_Moon wrote:Virtually every army in the FoG period is on record as wearing their best clothes for combat.

Romans are pretty much unbleached linen/wool if they weren't expecting trouble, dyed with madder (red/orange) if they were, perhaps with their officers bleached white.

This is my inclination. I would make a variety of reds though. Bright, dark, faded, muted, muddied, etc. The red of apples, cherries, pomegranates, tomatoes, fresh blood, dried blood, rust etc. etc. Hell, even some sullied pink or terra cotta orange or brown.

Why? Different dyes, different dye lots, different manufacturers, different kinds of cloth, different ages of cloth, different standards of care, different muddy waters plunged into or avoided, who stood out in the most rain, who stood out in the most sun, and who got to pass their time in the command or the sutler's tents . . .

Everything, EVERYTHING back then, ended up as a handcrafted item.

What makes ancients minis look like toy soldiers instead of dioramas is usually down to three factors: 1) absolute uniformity of kit; 2) absolute uniformity of colors; 3) lurid modern chemical colors which are anachronistic and too vivid.

Before you paint, go look at some color images of frescoes from Pompeii, or mosaics from any Roman source. Those pallettes reveal what was an acceptable aesthetic in that culture. It will help you pick convincing colors for your army.

Before you paint, go look at some color images of frescoes from Pompeii, or mosaics from any Roman source. Those pallettes reveal what was an acceptable aesthetic in that culture. It will help you pick convincing colors for your army.

Isn't that a bit difficult regarding the fact that these mosaics are also 2000 years old and will have changed their colors?
As you might probably know, these white greek statues we all know, were once painted in the most vivid colors you can imagine.

Mehrunes wrote:
Isn't that a bit difficult regarding the fact that these mosaics are also 2000 years old and will have changed their colors?
As you might probably know, these white greek statues we all know, were once painted in the most vivid colors you can imagine.

That reminds me that recently I have visited this exposition in my city in which they exposed replica of ancient statues with the colours they have discovered through scanners and other types of tests. There were some military depictions that are worth watching, but I would also take in consideration Mehrunes advice.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xckkdj ... o_creation

Mehrunes wrote:

Before you paint, go look at some color images of frescoes from Pompeii, or mosaics from any Roman source. Those pallettes reveal what was an acceptable aesthetic in that culture. It will help you pick convincing colors for your army.

Isn't that a bit difficult regarding the fact that these mosaics are also 2000 years old and will have changed their colors?
As you might probably know, these white greek statues we all know, were once painted in the most vivid colors you can imagine.

There is a surprising wealth of well preserved, tinctured Roman art out there.

Mosaics colors of the tesserae should be stable as they are typically stone.
http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/Misc/pag ... 0847WS.htm
http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/Misc/pag ... 0864WS.htm
http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/Misc/pag ... 0871WS.htm
http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/Misc/pag ... 0852WS.htm

Many Roman frescoes are remarkably well preserved - notably those buried by the eruption of Vesuvius.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... fresco.jpg

http://www.rome101.com/Herculaneum/ http://www.rome101.com/Oplontis/ http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/

http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/TempleOfIsis/ http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/Mysteries/

http://www.rome101.com/Pompeii/MarineVenus/

Cross reference with stable encaustics from Egypt show very similar color selections. Unfortunately for us, of civilian subjects for the most part. http://wagnerencaustics.com/wagner_enca ... story.html

That reminds me that recently I have visited this exposition in my city in which they exposed replica of ancient statues with the colours they have discovered through scanners and other types of tests. There were some military depictions that are worth watching, but I would also take in consideration Mehrunes advice.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xckkdj ... o_creation

Some very interesting images in that video. Some strikinglu rich red fabrics too.[/quote]

Just for kicks I painted my Romans a mix of red and dark green with some white to kind of show a early formation of states with different levels of wealth

That's pretty much how things worked during the Napoleonic Wars. The plumes and pompoms would be put back on the chako while the soldiers would do their best to look presentable if a battle was about to be initiated.

nikgaukroger wrote: I think that is a rather modern attitude and in ancient times you would actually wear your best kit to impess the enemy (and the gods) - for example Roman centurions wore their phalerae (excuse spelling) which have no practcal value other than to exhibit your prowess.

I would paint them so they look go to YOU and they will then fight better for you. Pick an army that you are interested in and paint them to your tastes - you will have fun and that is what is the most important. I have also found some of the best painters I have ever met - were the most gracious and helped me get better.

I would paint them so it helps you keep the units straight also