Slitherine

I love this game. It's about all that I play anymore, but I'm still not comfortable with the Combat System! I can't reconcile in my mind that crossbowmen will charge HF and inflict heavy damage? And then they have staying power to melee with them! I also have a problem with Impact Foot that are superior / drilled getting slaughtered on a charge against MF that are average / undrilled? It just doesn't make sense to me!!!!

viewtopic.php?t=15661
Don't poke in the hornets nest

hidde wrote:viewtopic.php?t=15661
Don't poke in the hornets nest

Yes, I understand the "Role" of dice in the game. But should Crossbowmen charge into HF, or anyone ? I would think that they would avoid a Melee at any cost???

They have to pass a test to make the charge, if they fail they wont go and can't make any other move or shoot I believe. hope that makes you feel a bit better.
As for impact foot they are trained to close on the enemy, but if the enemy is in terrain the impact foot don't like, well it will go in favour of the target.

deadtorius wrote:They have to pass a test to make the charge, if they fail they wont go and can't make any other move or shoot I believe. hope that makes you feel a bit better.
As for impact foot they are trained to close on the enemy, but if the enemy is in terrain the impact foot don't like, well it will go in favour of the target.

So when crossbowmen charge the enemy what weapon do they melee with? Use their crossbows as clubs? Or their bolts as knives?

Tombstone wrote:

deadtorius wrote:They have to pass a test to make the charge, if they fail they wont go and can't make any other move or shoot I believe. hope that makes you feel a bit better.
As for impact foot they are trained to close on the enemy, but if the enemy is in terrain the impact foot don't like, well it will go in favour of the target.

So when crossbowmen charge the enemy what weapon do they melee with? Use their crossbows as clubs? Or their bolts as knives?

You can picture it like the slingers in ROR, who apparently throttle their enemies with ther sling straps

Actually I have no problem with 1000 men w crossbows engaging in melee, presumably they have some sidearms, just not enough to merit an actual wepon in the melee slot.

Now me, I can't see crossbowmen being Gung Ho enough to charge Armored Knights! I would think that in reality that would be suicidal.... Oh well, it's only a Game.

Tombstone wrote:Now me, I can't see crossbowmen being Gung Ho enough to charge Armored Knights! I would think that in reality that would be suicidal.... Oh well, it's only a Game.

I hear ya, but if their disorganized already or commited to a combat why not? English archers did !

TheGrayMouser wrote:

Tombstone wrote:Now me, I can't see crossbowmen being Gung Ho enough to charge Armored Knights! I would think that in reality that would be suicidal.... Oh well, it's only a Game.

I hear ya, but if their disorganized already or commited to a combat why not? English archers did !

Ah!! Now the English Archers were pretty rough bunch of dudes. From what I've read, if they were ever captured and not killed outright they would cut off their fingers so they couldn't draw a bow again!!!

I think a tendancy amongst wargamers(and Im no exeption) is to get too hung up in unit "types" and weaponry We expect light infantry to shoot well but get slaughtered in ahnd to hand , legions to slice thru anyone, knights to bowl over lighter troops... In the end these were all men of varying sizes strenghts and dispositions... i dont think anyone would claim that a commando unit or Ranger unit should be clobbered by a mech infantry dismounted platoon in close combat simply becasue one is considered heavy infantry and the others light!
Kinda way out there in an anology i know.

I've always liked to think of different units and their capabilities as the old Rock, Paper, Scissors game???

I agree, in a game there should be a "break" between different unit capabilities according to type.
I think the reality is though, units kinda blend together in a linear way, in terms of actual capabilty

That being said, my crossbowmen never want to charge into combat, even when the target is fragged!

TheGrayMouser wrote:I agree, in a game there should be a "break" between different unit capabilities according to type.
I think the reality is though, units kinda blend together in a linear way, in terms of actual capabilty

That being said, my crossbowmen never want to charge into combat, even when the target is fragged!

MMM! Mine seem to have a "Kamikaze" syndrome...Bozo's is what they are!

The coming changes (shown in the roadmap thread) will reduce the frequency of anarchy charges for drilled BGs.

As army commanders we are not supposed to be in total control of every event - the local chappie in command of your crossbowmen may have seen an opportunity to charge them whilst they were stumbling over a hedge or ditch.

petergarnett wrote:The coming changes (shown in the roadmap thread) will reduce the frequency of anarchy charges for drilled BGs.

As army commanders we are not supposed to be in total control of every event - the local chappie in command of your crossbowmen may have seen an opportunity to charge them whilst they were stumbling over a hedge or ditch.

Remember, it is only troops defined as shock troops that are subject to anarchy charges. These are impact foot, pikes, offensive spears, cavalry/cataphracts/knights/camels with lance, and heavy and scythed chariots. So the majority of troops in many armies are not subject at all to anarchy charges including the crossbowmen in your example.

Chris

TheGrayMouser wrote:

Tombstone wrote:

deadtorius wrote:They have to pass a test to make the charge, if they fail they wont go and can't make any other move or shoot I believe. hope that makes you feel a bit better.
As for impact foot they are trained to close on the enemy, but if the enemy is in terrain the impact foot don't like, well it will go in favour of the target.

So when crossbowmen charge the enemy what weapon do they melee with? Use their crossbows as clubs? Or their bolts as knives?

You can picture it like the slingers in ROR, who apparently throttle their enemies with ther sling straps

Actually I have no problem with 1000 men w crossbows engaging in melee, presumably they have some sidearms, just not enough to merit an actual wepon in the melee slot.

The impact/missile/melee categories for units in FoG are intended to represent areas where the troops are sufficiently trained to specifically be effective with those weapons in combat. The crossbowmen presumably have side arms of various types but haven't spent a great deal of time training with them as a unit in melee and have instead had their training concentrated on their crossbows as missile weapons. English longbowmen apparently did put enough emphasis on close combat as well as their use of the longbow that they are credited with the swordsmen capability in addition to longbow. You will also note they are significantly more expensive than the crossbowmen with the same level of training.

Chris

I should clarify that these Suicidal Crossbowmen were controlled by the AI. Against a live opponent this probably wouldn't happen?

Now I was watching the History Channel special last night on the "Real" Robin Hood. Along with Ridley Scott and Russell Crowe adding to the commentary, they had a weapons expert giving a history lesson of weapons and combat during this time of history. He said that both sides had men armed with only long knives that would slip in and stab the horses from underneath and try to pull the rider(s) off and kill them while they were on the ground and helpless....

If your talking an AI army well than anything goes there. It is less likely a human opponent will want to charge in with his bows unless it is a desperate situation or you really need the miracle. I have sent mine, or tried to send them, in against fragged or rear charge units. sometimes I will send them into a routing unit since there are no shooting targets about, to up the enemy casualties and I have had them refuse to charge the routers. Having them actually charge is a more rare occurrence you wont see often against a human opponent

deadtorius wrote:If your talking an AI army well than anything goes there. It is less likely a human opponent will want to charge in with his bows unless it is a desperate situation or you really need the miracle. I have sent mine, or tried to send them, in against fragged or rear charge units. sometimes I will send them into a routing unit since there are no shooting targets about, to up the enemy casualties and I have had them refuse to charge the routers. Having them actually charge is a more rare occurrence you wont see often against a human opponent

I agree. The AI does some silly things at times!

whether or not they are suicidal, crossbowmen do rather well against many heavy foot types, such as spearmen. Why? How? I also don't understand the justification. maybe they do will upon impact because they let off a last round of bolts at point blank range (although even this seems exaggerated); but why do they do so well in melee?