Slitherine

Shouldn't the reiters switch to Carbine, Pistol after a certain date?

rbodleyscott wrote:Shouldn't the reiters switch to Carbine, Pistol after a certain date?

Yup - the list needs Reiters (with H. Armoured and Armoured options) followed by "Arquebusiers" (use the German name I guess) with carbine and are Armoured or Unarmoured.

nikgaukroger wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:Shouldn't the reiters switch to Carbine, Pistol after a certain date?

Yup - the list needs Reiters (with H. Armoured and Armoured options) followed by "Arquebusiers" (use the German name I guess) with carbine and are Armoured or Unarmoured.

Wouldn't those be Bandellier Reiter?

Nik posed the question whether these deploy as mounted. Yes, I think that is implicit in their function. There are a few other things I found which should be cleared up.

Do they have the movement speed of real Hussars until discovered? I think necessarily so - they can't fight on horseback, but presumably they can ride. Are they disordered by terrain as real Hussars? With mounts as part of their disguise, I think so.

Do they take tests (mainly CMT) as real Hussars? Being Mob, I don't see how. The player can preserve uncertainty or mislead the opponent by avoiding CMTs appropriately. Also, if a CMT is taken, Poor must re-roll 6s, whether they otherwise pass or not, but Superiors may choose to re-roll 1s or not, so, real or fake, the player can say "I'm not going to reroll the 1" without giving anything away. If a 6 is rolled by Fake hussars, pass or fail, the jig is up. You take your chances.

The relevant CMT difference between real and fake Hussars is that mounted can both turn and move as a complex move. .

Do they support other BGs? Mob provides no support, so no. But if no support bonus is needed to pass a CT, or another BG provides it, do we need to establish whether the Fake hussars provide support? Given the function of the Fake hussar, I think the answer is we don't need to go to that step, and this is what people usually do anyway.

Something else I didn't think about until recently is that they can be revealed by failing to cancel the threatened flank -1 Shooting POA for foot in a situation where being fake makes a difference. This makes sense, since presumably the Polish troops will know the Hussars are not real and would be normally nervous. There is a counter-argument that they know the enemy is being deterred, but I see no need to make an exception to the rules.

So my suggestion is along the lines of

Players using Fake hussars can deploy hussar bases which must be replaced by bases depicting mob or peasants on poor mounts as soon as enemy within 6 MUs can see them. Until so replaced in this way or voluntarily, they deploy, move and are affected by terrain as if Hussars but test and otherwise function as their actual type. Note that events such as taking certain CMTs, mandatory re-rolling of 6s by Poor troops, or inability to support other troops for test or POA purposes may enable the other player to realize the deception. At the same time, real Hussars may be manoeuvred in ways that suggest they are fake.

I'll wait until Richard comments before updating.

nikgaukroger wrote:I'll wait until Richard comments before updating.

This all seems unnecessarily complicated and IMO makes them far too good. Suggest that, apart from allowing them to be deployed as if Mounted, they behave as Mob at all times. The trick then will be to use them in ways that does not give the game away. This pretty much means they need to stand there as an apparent reserve.

Is there any historical evidence that they did anything more than that?

I really doubt that they were capable of the manoeuvreing Mike suggests. Unless the evidence clearly states that they could, common sense says they couldn't.

No manoeuvring difference in the sense of complex moves. Just moving faster and disordering in terrain as they have mounts.

The rest is just notes on game effects.

IMO they should be treated as Mob (it is what they are) in all respects except they can deploy as if mounted.

(Dragoons are mounted too but are not affected by terrain, so let's keep it simple).

If you don't want to give them away, don't move them fast through terrain.

You could add that they are revealed if they perform any move that would not be possible for Determined Horse. Hence if they move faster in terrain than Determined Horse could, they are automatically revealed - which means they have got off their horses.

I agree.

Maybe "move or action not possible for Determined Horse" is desirable to sweep more broadly (deployment area already addressed).

Richard,

Can you insert suitable wording into the draft please - you do this sort of thing better than I

nikgaukroger wrote:Richard,

Can you insert suitable wording into the draft please - you do this sort of thing better than I

Personally, I am happy with

 Players using fake hussars can deploy Hussar bases which must be replaced by bases depicting mob or peasants on poor mounts as soon as enemy within 6 MUs can see them. They can be deployed within 12 MUs of a side table edge as if mounted troops. In all other respects they are treated as normal Mob.

Leave it to the enemy to spot if they do anything that Determined Horse can't. Keep it simple.

OK