Slitherine

The Question: can KN2 intercept KN1?

The situation:


>>>>>>>>>>Kn1Kn1>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Kn1Kn1>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>CV>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>CV>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>CV>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>CV>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>KN2KN2KN2KN2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Kn1 is facing the two enemy (CV & KN2-are facing up the page) BGs at the bottom of the page and is forced to charge straight ahead due to failure of a CMT.

The distance to the bottom most CV element is less than or equal to 4 inches
The distance between KN1 & Kn2 is greater than 4 inches

To be considered a target of a charge, a charging BG must be able to legally contact an intended target. Whether by movement or a "step-forward".
Fine so far.

If the Cv chose to evade, can KN2 declare an intercept?

The problem arises when using the playsheet. According to the playsheet:
Charges are declared (rolled CMTs to hold) etc..
Make interceptions
Make evade moves.

If the interceptions move first, then there would be no stepforward.
If the evade went first and KN1s VMD was 1-4 there would be no step-forward, nor enough normal movement to reach a declared target.

Thoughts?


Madcam.

I was about to type an answer then I think I understood the issue.

Strictly Kn2 is a target of the charge because if the Cv don't evade then it will be contacted by the step forwards. As intercepts are before evades at that point Kn2 is still a target. When the Cv evade Kn2 stops being a target but is now out of charge reach of Kn1.

Interesting.

I suspect that Kn2 cannot intercept.

One other comment though. Shock troops that fail a test to charge don't have to charge directly forwards. If they "cannot contact all potential target battle groups within charge range" then they "charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead" which in this case means they have to charge so as to contact the Cv and step forwards into the Kn.

Chicken & egg...

By the playsheet IMO yes.
By the RAW, no.

I just didn't know if there was an errata/clarification out there unawares...

good catch with the path... forgot about that... irrelavent in this case, but GTK

Madcam

hammy wrote:I was about to type an answer then I think I understood the issue.

Strictly Kn2 is a target of the charge because if the Cv don't evade then it will be contacted by the step forwards. As intercepts are before evades at that point Kn2 is still a target. When the Cv evade Kn2 stops being a target but is now out of charge reach of Kn1.

Interesting.

I suspect that Kn2 cannot intercept.

One other comment though. Shock troops that fail a test to charge don't have to charge directly forwards. If they "cannot contact all potential target battle groups within charge range" then they "charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead" which in this case means they have to charge so as to contact the Cv and step forwards into the Kn.

Since the Knights are targets by virtue of being in the path of the charge, counting stepping forward they cannot intercept. If the Cav choose to evade out of the path, the knights are no longer targets, but could become targets again if the charger rolls high on its VMD.

I appreciate everyones interp on this... it would have been worth $20 to me.. but I didn't take the wager..

gozerius wrote:Since the Knights are targets by virtue of being in the path of the charge, counting stepping forward they cannot intercept. If the Cav choose to evade out of the path, the knights are no longer targets, but could become targets again if the charger rolls high on its VMD.

Exactly.

It is a little odd but not exactly a normal situation and I suspect one that the owner of the cavalry could avoid with a little thought.

hammy wrote:I was about to type an answer then I think I understood the issue.

Strictly Kn2 is a target of the charge because if the Cv don't evade then it will be contacted by the step forwards. As intercepts are before evades at that point Kn2 is still a target. When the Cv evade Kn2 stops being a target but is now out of charge reach of Kn1.

Interesting.

I suspect that Kn2 cannot intercept.

One other comment though. Shock troops that fail a test to charge don't have to charge directly forwards. If they "cannot contact all potential target battle groups within charge range" then they "charge the one(s) nearest to straight ahead" which in this case means they have to charge so as to contact the Cv and step forwards into the Kn.

Rules not on me but there may be a wrinkle...

Intercept moves are before evade moves. However, the point at which Kn2 stops being a target is when the Cv decide to evade. Does this occur prior to the intercept charge decision?

Agree with the concern over reference sheets vs RAW - I only use the latter for that very reason.

grahambriggs wrote:Rules not on me but there may be a wrinkle...

Intercept moves are before evade moves. However, the point at which Kn2 stops being a target is when the Cv decide to evade. Does this occur prior to the intercept charge decision?

Agree with the concern over reference sheets vs RAW - I only use the latter for that very reason.

Good point Graham, how about this then?

Exactly the same situation but the left hand base of the cavalry is in difficult going so the base move of the evade is 1 MU. There is a 1 in 3 chance that if the cavalry evade they will not move at all. How does that affect things

hammy wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:Rules not on me but there may be a wrinkle...

Intercept moves are before evade moves. However, the point at which Kn2 stops being a target is when the Cv decide to evade. Does this occur prior to the intercept charge decision?

Agree with the concern over reference sheets vs RAW - I only use the latter for that very reason.

Good point Graham, how about this then?

Exactly the same situation but the left hand base of the cavalry is in difficult going so the base move of the evade is 1 MU. There is a 1 in 3 chance that if the cavalry evade they will not move at all. How does that affect things

In the same way as there is an official expanded index it woudl be worthwhile to have an expanded turn sequence.

declare charges including charge path
declare intent to prevent a charge
declare intercept charges (and distance)
delcare evades
roll to avoid charging
roll to charge is test is needed
roll test to avoid breaking if target and fragmented
make initial pursuits for newly broken troops
make al lintercept moves (in owning player order)
roll all evade vmds
make all evade moves (in owning player order)
roll vmd for chargers
roll to stand , vmd or break tests for new targets as a result of vmd and evades.
make all charge moves
blah blah blah

It would save a lot of these issues I think and also avoid an faq on particualr instances. "when you you have to declare you path etc..."

expendablecinc wrote:In the same way as there is an official expanded index it woudl be worthwhile to have an expanded turn sequence.

declare charges including charge path
declare intent to prevent a charge
declare intercept charges (and distance)
delcare evades
roll to avoid charging
roll to charge is test is needed
roll test to avoid breaking if target and fragmented
make initial pursuits for newly broken troops
make al lintercept moves (in owning player order)
roll all evade vmds
make all evade moves (in owning player order)
roll vmd for chargers
roll to stand , vmd or break tests for new targets as a result of vmd and evades.
make all charge moves
blah blah blah

It would save a lot of these issues I think and also avoid an faq on particualr instances. "when you you have to declare you path etc..."

I did try to do a fully expanded sequence of play but it is actually quite hard to do, especially where you can have things like one BG fighting in multiple impacst in one turn.

By your list and by the rules though Kn2 don't seem to be able to intercept because at the point they would declare an interception charge they are the target of a charge.

If the Cav choose to evade out of the path, the knights are no longer targets, but could become targets again if the charger rolls high on its VMD

Just to throw further confusion into this, since the Knights are a target when the charge is declared, not all of the targets will have evaded, so presumably the charger doesn't get a VMD.

More Egg & chicken - NO VMD due to all targets not evading, but 4 inches is not enough to contact, meaning are the knights truely a target, meaning could they intercept...

LOL

MHOHIO< don't recall this issue being the $20 bet. That was other interception question with your LH v my LH.

But then again, your memory is more than suspect!

Madcam.

madcam2us wrote: MHOHIO< don't recall this issue being the $20 bet.

But then again, your memory is more than suspect!

Madcam.

Yes its me you owe the $50 to

The way I saw this was that on the declaration phase, the Knights failed the CMT on staying, so they must push forward towards the Cav. Before any flee move and before intercept... do the knights have in there path both targets, Cav who are the reason for charge, and knights who could be contacted due to the 2" stepping forward. Yes on both, this is in the declaration phase.. nothing else needs to happen... No intercept. Do not add a sub phase to this, it's very clear... Madcam, you jumped ahead.. take care of the Declaration phase... then move onto your other phases.

Ginseng might be able to help that memory issue of yours...

I agree that Kn2 cannot intercept, but there is another wrinkle for charge declarations.

The rules do not require the charging player to designate charge direction until an evade is declared.

Don't have the rules at hand, so I cannot recall the charge direction options available to a sponno charger (they are not the same as options for the declared charger IIRC). If the charger could and did wheel into the Cv, then Kn2 would not be a target because there would not be a step forward.

Problem = can madcam (that gimmicky SoB) declare a charge w/o direction, deny the Kn2 intercept because of step-forwards, then wheel to eliminate the same step forward? Seems that he should not be able to, but the turn sequence/RAW do not prohibit this (they might for sponno charges though).

Spike

spikemesq wrote:I agree that Kn2 cannot intercept, but there is another wrinkle for charge declarations.

The rules do not require the charging player to designate charge direction until an evade is declared.

Don't have the rules at hand, so I cannot recall the charge direction options available to a sponno charger (they are not the same as options for the declared charger IIRC). If the charger could and did wheel into the Cv, then Kn2 would not be a target because there would not be a step forward.

Problem = can madcam (that gimmicky SoB) declare a charge w/o direction, deny the Kn2 intercept because of step-forwards, then wheel to eliminate the same step forward? Seems that he should not be able to, but the turn sequence/RAW do not prohibit this (they might for sponno charges though).

Spike

Well unless you believe in quantum charges the knights are not a target until the direction of the charge is defines

If you look at "declaration of charges" on P52 you will find the phrase "A battle group can declare charges on as many enemy battlegroups as can be 'legally' contacted within its move distance". For Kn2 not to be able to intercept they have to be a target of the charge. If they are a target of the charge then the direction of the charge has to be such that they would be lecally contacted.

Does pg 52 clarify the legal contact to include any additional move from stepping forward? No rules at the office.

Spike

It says legally contacted within move distance and then the stepping forwards rules it says the stepped forwards distance is additional to the normal move distance plus any VMD already added so move distance IMO includes the step forwards.

hammy wrote:

spikemesq wrote:I agree that Kn2 cannot intercept, but there is another wrinkle for charge declarations.

The rules do not require the charging player to designate charge direction until an evade is declared.

Don't have the rules at hand, so I cannot recall the charge direction options available to a sponno charger (they are not the same as options for the declared charger IIRC). If the charger could and did wheel into the Cv, then Kn2 would not be a target because there would not be a step forward.

Problem = can madcam (that gimmicky SoB) declare a charge w/o direction, deny the Kn2 intercept because of step-forwards, then wheel to eliminate the same step forward? Seems that he should not be able to, but the turn sequence/RAW do not prohibit this (they might for sponno charges though).

Spike

Well unless you believe in quantum charges the knights are not a target until the direction of the charge is defines

If you look at "declaration of charges" on P52 you will find the phrase "A battle group can declare charges on as many enemy battlegroups as can be 'legally' contacted within its move distance". For Kn2 not to be able to intercept they have to be a target of the charge. If they are a target of the charge then the direction of the charge has to be such that they would be lecally contacted.

I believe there is is a clarification some place official (rules/errata/FAQ) that the charge direction must be declared if there is the possibility of an intercept so this should be done before the intercept is declared.

Chris

spikemesq wrote: The rules do not require the charging player to designate charge direction until an evade is declared.


Spike

Please keep current Spike that issue was solved like so last year!

Madcam.