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French Ordonance late army and Franc-Archers
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:34 pm
by Aryaman
IMO Franc-Archers are not well represented in the game, for several reasons
1) From the start they rarely used the longbow, using instead crossbows, but since 1456 less so, when companies of vougiers were added to those of gens de trait. There should be since then two types, one using crossbow and the other heavy weapons.
2) In 1481 they were abolished and its placed taken by the Swiss regiments, so it is odd to have them simultaneously in the same army
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:56 pm
by Paisley
I was under the impression that they were, if not mixed formations, certainly a mix of troops. Bows, crossbows and pikes. I didn't think they were directly replaced with Swiss but with a mix of Swiss and new versions of home-grown troops. I might be wrong though as it's a long time since I read Contamine.
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:21 pm
by Aryaman
Paisley wrote:I was under the impression that they were, if not mixed formations, certainly a mix of troops. Bows, crossbows and pikes. I didn't think they were directly replaced with Swiss but with a mix of Swiss and new versions of home-grown troops. I might be wrong though as it's a long time since I read Contamine.
I don´t recall any source indicating they carried pikes, but rather polearms. You are right there were tries to recruit home pikemen, but in the end it was more expedient to hire Swiss pikemen and complement them with Gascon crossbowmen.
In any case, my point is that in the mentioned DAG army should not be together Franc_Archers and Swiss pikemen
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 6:44 pm
by Paisley
I was agreeing with you, I just wasn't sure about the mix.
Having checked Contamine he says 'longbows, crossbows, pikes and (soon) handgunners'. And that they were replaced by Swiss and homegrown troops, the latter being bows pikes and halberds. That said, you may well have a more recent work that contradicts Contamine who is, after all, over 20 years published.
In fairness, both Fr. Ord. lists get crossbowmen, halberdiers and handgunners as well as the compulsory 'francs archer' longbowmen. It may be they've just retained the name in the second list
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:53 pm
by Aryaman
Paisley wrote:I was agreeing with you, I just wasn't sure about the mix.
Having checked Contamine he says 'longbows, crossbows, pikes and (soon) handgunners'. And that they were replaced by Swiss and homegrown troops, the latter being bows pikes and halberds. That said, you may well have a more recent work that contradicts Contamine who is, after all, over 20 years published.
In fairness, both Fr. Ord. lists get crossbowmen, halberdiers and handgunners as well as the compulsory 'francs archer' longbowmen. It may be they've just retained the name in the second list
The ordonnances indicate vougiers, so maybe pike is that translation for vouge (?)
Anyway crossbowmen seems to be similar to longbowmen in game terms...