Slitherine

Hi guys

a new and final beta is available. Download the beta from www.slitherine.com/files/fog/storm_of_arrows_1.2.4.exe

Please note this will only work as an update to v1.2.1, so dont bother trying unless you are already part of the beta.

The main changes in this version are:
* Archers - they no longer get a free turn. This means you have to be facing your target to shoot. You can turn during your move but you must end facing your target. LH can shoot all round but get a -1POA if not in the forward arc.
* Drilled troops only get one free turn. This is a big change and heavily reduces the manoevrability of your forces and makes it much more realistic. Drilled troops get one free turn. Up to now they got a free turn at the start and the end of their turn. This one will take some getting used to!
* New battles - Tewksbury, Starter Army Burgundian vs Swiss & Towton.

Known bugs to be fixed today but not be in your final beta.
* Dismounted - sometimes troops remount though it should be fixed for msot cases.
* AI will now shoot the back ranks of mixed battle groups.
* Shock troops sometimes impetuously charge through shock troops and charging in to terrain.

Can you test out the movement & shooting changes and let us know if you have problems. You will find you have to play the game differently after these changes! If all goes well we'll build the final master versions tomorrow for release Wednesday!

Good luck!

iainmcneil wrote:Hi guys

a new and final beta is available. Download the beta from www.slitherine.com/files/fog/storm_of_arrows_1.2.4.exe

Please note this will only work as an update to v1.2.1, so dont bother trying unless you are already part of the beta.

The main changes in this version are:
* Archers - they no longer get a free turn. This means you have to be facing your target to shoot. You can turn during your move but you must end facing your target. LH can shoot all round but get a -1POA if not in the forward arc.
* Drilled troops only get one free turn. This is a big change and heavily reduces the manoevrability of your forces and makes it much more realistic. Drilled troops get one free turn. Up to now they got a free turn at the start and the end of their turn. This one will take some getting used to!
* New battles - Tewksbury, Starter Army Burgundian vs Swiss & Towton.

Known bugs to be fixed today but not be in your final beta.
* Dismounted - sometimes troops remount though it should be fixed for msot cases.
* AI will now shoot the back ranks of mixed battle groups.
* Shock troops sometimes impetuously charge through shock troops and charging in to terrain.

Can you test out the movement & shooting changes and let us know if you have problems. You will find you have to play the game differently after these changes! If all goes well we'll build the final master versions tomorrow for release Wednesday!

Good luck!

A couple questions without having tried the new update yet:

1) Yay for getting rid of the free turn. How are skirmishers affected in terms of free turns. They should probably keep the ability to turn before and after unlike non-skirmisher drilled troops. To go along with these changes, evaders should also end up facing the way they evaded at the end of movement, not back from the direction they came so they are immediately in a position to charge the enemy they evaded from.

2) Undrilled cavalry should be allowed a free turn like drilled troops. In the TT rules they are the same as drilled cavalry in maneuverability other than when attempting to expand frontage during a move. Since FoG PC does not represent changes in frontage at all in a BG, undrilled cavalry should be treated the same as drilled other than for their chance of passing a CMT.

3) The penalty for MF archers moving and shooting should probably be dropped now that they no longer get a free facing change. They are already not terribly effective as troops and do not need the additional penalty now that they can no longer play the back up and shoot game.

Looking forward to testing the new changes.

Chris

What will happen to the base game and Rise of Rome when SoA goes out? Will the changes to Archers and one free turn for drilled apply there too? If so will this be by means of a separate patch?

Geordietaf wrote:What will happen to the base game and Rise of Rome when SoA goes out? Will the changes to Archers and one free turn for drilled apply there too? If so will this be by means of a separate patch?

For RoR, the patch to for FoG PC was released at the same time as RoR. I expect it will be the same for SoA. The patch should also be included with SoA so users who are installing that should not have to separately install the patch.

Chris

For the Towton scenario (not that I'm at all precious ):

House of Lancaster rather then Houser of Lancaster.

In the blurb, 'scenarion' instead of 'scenario' and 'Kyth' instead of 'Keyth'.

Ta!

iainmcneil wrote:* Drilled troops only get one free turn. This is a big change and heavily reduces the manoevrability of your forces and makes it much more realistic. Drilled troops get one free turn. Up to now they got a free turn at the start and the end of their turn.

As far as I can see, now drilled units only get a free turn at the start of the move. Is this correct or they should be able to turn either at the start OR at the end?

Edit: Ok, I see that drilled units get a turn at the start OR at the end, but in the latter case they must have moved through its front arc.

batesmotel wrote:

iainmcneil wrote:Hi guys

a new and final beta is available. Download the beta from www.slitherine.com/files/fog/storm_of_arrows_1.2.4.exe

Please note this will only work as an update to v1.2.1, so dont bother trying unless you are already part of the beta.

The main changes in this version are:
* Archers - they no longer get a free turn. This means you have to be facing your target to shoot. You can turn during your move but you must end facing your target. LH can shoot all round but get a -1POA if not in the forward arc.
* Drilled troops only get one free turn. This is a big change and heavily reduces the manoevrability of your forces and makes it much more realistic. Drilled troops get one free turn. Up to now they got a free turn at the start and the end of their turn. This one will take some getting used to!
* New battles - Tewksbury, Starter Army Burgundian vs Swiss & Towton.

Known bugs to be fixed today but not be in your final beta.
* Dismounted - sometimes troops remount though it should be fixed for msot cases.
* AI will now shoot the back ranks of mixed battle groups.
* Shock troops sometimes impetuously charge through shock troops and charging in to terrain.

Can you test out the movement & shooting changes and let us know if you have problems. You will find you have to play the game differently after these changes! If all goes well we'll build the final master versions tomorrow for release Wednesday!

Good luck!

A couple questions without having tried the new update yet:

1) Yay for getting rid of the free turn. How are skirmishers affected in terms of free turns. They should probably keep the ability to turn before and after unlike non-skirmisher drilled troops. To go along with these changes, evaders should also end up facing the way they evaded at the end of movement, not back from the direction they came so they are immediately in a position to charge the enemy they evaded from.

2) Undrilled cavalry should be allowed a free turn like drilled troops. In the TT rules they are the same as drilled cavalry in maneuverability other than when attempting to expand frontage during a move. Since FoG PC does not represent changes in frontage at all in a BG, undrilled cavalry should be treated the same as drilled other than for their chance of passing a CMT.

3) The penalty for MF archers moving and shooting should probably be dropped now that they no longer get a free facing change. They are already not terribly effective as troops and do not need the additional penalty now that they can no longer play the back up and shoot game.

Looking forward to testing the new changes.

Chris

1 - disagree about evaders unless heavy cavalry can choose not to evade.

2- disagree. drilled cavalry should be more manouuverable than unrilled. that is wat drill is all about. I'd support an increase in drilled cavalry cost, or perhaps a reduction in undrilled.

3- disagree very strongly. I'd favour a hex or two increase in range perhaps but I think the PoA disadvantage for move+fire should remain.

Paisley wrote:
1 - disagree about evaders unless heavy cavalry can choose not to evade.

2- disagree. drilled cavalry should be more manouuverable than unrilled. that is wat drill is all about. I'd support an increase in drilled cavalry cost, or perhaps a reduction in undrilled.

3- disagree very strongly. I'd favour a hex or two increase in range perhaps but I think the PoA disadvantage for move+fire should remain.

1. I agree that the player should have more control about the behavior of cavalry and choosing to evade than the game allows at present. None the less, having evaders face in the direction they evaded is consistent with the TT rules and it does mean there is some value in chasing away evaders, especially skirmishers.

2. In the TT rules, drilled and undrilled cavalry are treated nearly the same and hence they should be treated similarly in FoG PC. The existing TT army list classifications of cavalry as drilled versus undrilled was made with this underlying assumption so if FoG PC is going to make undrilled cavalry substantially inferior to drilled, then the undrilled cavalry in each of the existing army lists would need to be reconsidered as to the correct classification.

3. The -1 added for moving MF archers was added specifically to reduce the ability that the free facing changes gave MF to turn around, back up, and then turn around again and shoot, thus effectively allowing them to skirmish. With the changes now made to eliminate free facing changes for shooters. there is no good reason to penalize a player who wants to use MF archers in a non-static, aggressive manner by advancing his troops and shooting at the opposing BGs.

Chris

1. Yes. But as we don't have that control yet your proposal will neuter the side with marginally weaker HC.

2. I agree, the points relationship would need reconsiderd.

3. Bow armed foot seldom if ever operated aggresively in that manner historically and I can see no real reason for them to do so in the game without penalty.

I'm a bit confused about the new turning system (although it looks great so far)

Drilled troops can turn at the start of their turn, or at the end if they moved through their front arc. Is this correct?

Undrilled LH and undrilled LF move in the same way as drilled troops, is it?

Is it there any difference between drilled and undrilled light troops?

iainmcneil wrote:If all goes well we'll build the final master versions tomorrow for release Wednesday!

What time do I need to get up to begin downloading SoA?

kilroy

Now that I've played a bit with 1.2.4, I like the changes for facing overall. I still think that skirmishers should beallowed a free facing before and after as they used to get. They seem a little too restricted now with the latest change. I also still think that undrilled cavalry should be treated the same as drilled for facing changes as I noted above.

Chris

We're not planning to change the direction faced after evading. Drilled vs undrilled cav I'm unsure on - we'll see how they feel after this update has been tested. The POA for moving MF was removed last night I think.

The allegiance of the armies in Tewksbury has been corrected but the turn announcement info is still incorrect.


Heny

Do Drilled troops get a free turn before OR after movement ?
what if they turn in the movement phase , eg if your retreating
do you get to turn around ? or is this what your trying to avoid ?

if this is the case then are not drilled and undrilled the same for movement and turning ?

Cheers
Ian


*Drilled troops only get one free turn. This is a big change and heavily reduces the manoevrability of your forces and makes it much more realistic. Drilled troops get one free turn. Up to now they got a free turn at the start and the end of their turn. This one will take some getting used to!

It looks like drilled troops can turn at the start, OR at the end IF they moved through their front arc.

I think before 1.2.4 undrilled troops were able either to turn or to move.

The difference between drilled HF/MF and undrilled/drilled LF/LH is still not clear to me... In my tests, undrilled LF/LH behaves as described above for drilled troops...

Thats what i seem to think as well
hopefully someone can help answer this....
Ian

The difference between drilled HF/MF and undrilled/drilled LF/LH is still not clear to me... In my tests, undrilled LF/LH behaves as described above for drilled troops...[/quote]

Drilled and undrilled LF/LH move the same. The only real difference is when they have to do a CMT the drilled only need a 7 and the undrilled 8. Keith

Thanks.

What is the difference between drilled HF and undrilled LF?

For that its best look at the help files in the game on training and troop types. See the help index. Thanks Keith