Slitherine

If you charge a BG of knights in a 2 x 2 formation into two enemy BGs which are not in line (i.e. they are kinked) you cannot conform so you fight in an unconformed position. Can you expand one of the rear bases of knights to fight in melee ?
If you could conform you would be able to, but can the kink stop you expanding ?
Or can you expand if you can angle your inititial charge to contact one enemy BG parallel, so you can expand on that side but not the other ?

Since you fight as if conformed you can expand one base, if it will fit and does not detach from your BG

Yes but it won't fit due to the fact the the BGs are not parallel. If you conformed you could expand, but because you can't conform you can't expand.

The point is, what does it mean that you fight as if you conformed ? Does this also mean you can expand, even though the bases don't fit, because you would be able to expand if you conformed.

This has come up a few times in our games, and we have played it that the BG cannot expand. But it does mean there can be a benefit to kinking a line when facing enemy troops that will want to expand to get maximum bases fighting in melee.

viewtopic.php?t=11143

look at that , it can help you.

Thanks. I actually posted on that thread so should have remembered !

I kind of read it that you can't expand. "fight as if conformed" to me means the combat section. But conforming is in movement. It doesn't say "move and fight as if conformed"

grahambriggs wrote:I kind of read it that you can't expand. "fight as if conformed" to me means the combat section. But conforming is in movement. It doesn't say "move and fight as if conformed"

There is nothing in the "Feeding More Bases into Melee" section to support your position. Feeding bases in is a function allowed to BGs in contact with the enemy. There is nothing suggesting that BGs that are not conformed cannot expand their frontage, as long as they meet the criteria. For the active player that means creating an overlap or moving to a space where the enemy already has an overlap. For the inactive player, that means matching an expansion, or moving to a space where the enemy already has an overlap. Although feeding bases occurs in the maneuver phase, it is a function of combat, therefore the BG is not actually moving. For this reason the restrictions on maintaining a legal formation do not apply once a BG is in combat. The restriction only applies to BGs not in close combat and is for the purpose of facilitating movement. What matters in close combat is maintaining frontage with the enemy. Feeding in bases is the mechanism to increase frontage with the enemy.

There is nothing in the rules about the legal formation requirements being suspended when in combat. The rules state that you may not voluntarily form an illegal formation. Feeding bases into combat is voluntary, hence the legal formation rules apply.

'Fight as if conformed' might be taken to mean that feeding in bases is permitted as if the BG had conformed. Most players seem to be happy with this. This may result in some bases being stepped back or similar, however, the ranks would still need an even number of bases, except the last, as per normal formations.

rogerg wrote:There is nothing in the rules about the legal formation requirements being suspended when in combat. The rules state that you may not voluntarily form an illegal formation. Feeding bases into combat is voluntary, hence the legal formation rules apply.

'Fight as if conformed' might be taken to mean that feeding in bases is permitted as if the BG had conformed. Most players seem to be happy with this. This may result in some bases being stepped back or similar, however, the ranks would still need an even number of bases, except the last, as per normal formations.

So Simon's response as an author (in the link posted above) is incorrect?

stenic wrote: So Simon's response as an author (in the link posted above) is incorrect?

I think so - IMO Roger is correct about the formation requirement.

rogerg wrote:There is nothing in the rules about the legal formation requirements being suspended when in combat. The rules state that you may not voluntarily form an illegal formation. Feeding bases into combat is voluntary, hence the legal formation rules apply.

'Fight as if conformed' might be taken to mean that feeding in bases is permitted as if the BG had conformed. Most players seem to be happy with this. This may result in some bases being stepped back or similar, however, the ranks would still need an even number of bases, except the last, as per normal formations.

This is my interpretation. Yes.

I think so - IMO Roger is correct about the formation requirement

so, we start to play like DBM, with KInded battle line I hope that we can feeding in melee like Simon say in the previous Post

So Simon's response as an author (in the link posted above) is incorrect?

nikgaukroger wrote:

stenic wrote: So Simon's response as an author (in the link posted above) is incorrect?

I think so - IMO Roger is correct about the formation requirement.

I pointed that out in the thread about conforming (i.e. do not conform if the shortest way is blocked somehow) some months ago. IMO keeping both requirements is silly and open to exploits. Either allow conforming the longer way (maybe optionally) or allow expanding if you fight 'as if conformed'. After all a stepped forward unconformed attacker is not in an legal formation either.

After all a stepped forward unconformed attacker is not in an legal formation either.

Can't argue with that logic which in the long run makes sense.

deadtorius wrote:

After all a stepped forward unconformed attacker is not in an legal formation either.

Can't argue with that logic which in the long run makes sense.

This happened at a comp on the weekend.

K was directly in front of BG of spearmen S
O was also slightly in front of BG K as well
If K charges straight ahead its 6 dice vs six dice athe spearmen expand in the mellee to match the Kn overlap
Instead of charging straight ahead K wheeled slightly to thier left so they hit O and S at an angle (facing to the bottom right of screen)
This engineered an impossibel conform for the KN which in turn prevented S from expanding.


KKKK

____OOO
__SSOOO
__SS
__SS

Being stepped forward is a legal formation. It cannot be formed voluntarily, but that does not make it illegal. Providing the rule on equality of all but the final rank is maintained, expanding a stepped forward group maintains a legal formation.