Slitherine

As the Greeks I get getting shelacked. That I don't mind but in my last turn every time I attacked with Greek Hopites against archers and other riff raff I was loseing like 300 mento 20. Even attacking the camps of mobs was depressing. Hell, they attacked me! LOL . I'm glad The greeks pulled it off then but if I was there leading them I think the Greeks would be speaking Persian today!

I played it twice vs the AI, as the Greeks, won one lost one. Stay mostly together, let them come to you in penny packets and take those out then press your attack. Take out his camp units, easy marks. The first game I tred being very agressive, trying to recreate something like the original greek strategy, and failed miserably. The battlefield does not look as I expected from what I have read, but I have never been there so what do I know.

Perhaps changing the supply train units from mob to baggage, and the sparabara units to mixed BGs (currently only available in the SoA beta) would improve the scenario. I will try to make the changes this afternoon.

If the Hoplites charge like they did during the real battle, they get slaughtered!!! And the baggage train is "Deadly"...

Examinondas wrote:Perhaps changing the supply train units from mob to baggage, and the sparabara units to mixed BGs (currently only available in the SoA beta) would improve the scenario. I will try to make the changes this afternoon.

I do not think that changing the sparabara units to mixed BGs will make any significant difference assuming the mixed BGs act like they do in the TT rules. The real issue is the maneuverability of troops in general and especially with the free facing when shooting change for missile armed troops.

Chris

batesmotel wrote: I do not think that changing the sparabara units to mixed BGs will make any significant difference assuming the mixed BGs act like they do in the TT rules. The real issue is the maneuverability of troops in general and especially with the free facing when shooting change for missile armed troops.

Chris

Besides the free facing, there is the question of how the AI will behave wrt to a mixed BG - will it make the same moves with a mixed BG and with an archer BG?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that mixed BGs use less dices than non-mixed archer BGs, so the change would reduce the effect of archer fire.

Examinondas wrote:

batesmotel wrote: I do not think that changing the sparabara units to mixed BGs will make any significant difference assuming the mixed BGs act like they do in the TT rules. The real issue is the maneuverability of troops in general and especially with the free facing when shooting change for missile armed troops.

Chris

Besides the free facing, there is the question of how the AI will behave wrt to a mixed BG - will it make the same moves with a mixed BG and with an archer BG?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that mixed BGs use less dices than non-mixed archer BGs, so the change would reduce the effect of archer fire.

They should probably only get two shots rather than 3 although they should still get the extra attacks in impact. My experience in playing Marathon isn't that the archery fire is really too effective. It is that the MF archers are too maneuverable given the free facing for shooting so that you can't easily catch them and force them to stand and fight. If you can do that, the Greeks should be able to win.

Chris

Just played the modified scenario: easy victory as the greeks, 2/9 to 23/22.

The AI used the sparabara in a completely different (and wrong) way: as regular spearmen, without firing a single arrow. I played the scenario as the persians and could shoot, so maybe it's a SoA bug.

Anyway, I think the scenario played much better. Of course, the persian supply train not closing to attack my hoplites was also a nice touch...

Examinondas wrote:Just played the modified scenario: easy victory as the greeks, 2/9 to 23/22.

The AI used the sparabara in a completely different (and wrong) way: as regular spearmen, without firing a single arrow. I played the scenario as the persians and could shoot, so maybe it's a SoA bug.

Anyway, I think the scenario played much better. Of course, the persian supply train not closing to attack my hoplites was also a nice touch...

I think you need to mark the sparabara as skirmishers (a check box I think) which seems to be how the AI can tell that a unit has missile weapons.

Chris

Can't find an "skirmisher" check box. Are you talking about the new "medieval true/false" variable?

This is a tough one as the Greeks. The Persians peck away at you from a distance and by the time you get to pin them down you are very depleted. I finally won just by sweating out the attrition and being lucky with the rolls.

I played as the Persians against a human. I was mainly trying to see if there was some trick to using the Greeks that I didn't know - but found it easy running away and shooting as the AI does.

Examinondas wrote:Just played the modified scenario: easy victory as the greeks, 2/9 to 23/22.

The AI used the sparabara in a completely different (and wrong) way: as regular spearmen, without firing a single arrow. I played the scenario as the persians and could shoot, so maybe it's a SoA bug.

Anyway, I think the scenario played much better. Of course, the persian supply train not closing to attack my hoplites was also a nice touch...

What modified scenario are you talking about?

The modified scenario with the changes described in my first post in this thread.

I know what it is! Slitherine is playing a joke on us. The Persians are really the Mongol Horde and the Greeks are the haplass Russian/Hungarian knights.

This is just a preview of the next Battle pack

beserko wrote:As the Greeks I get getting shelacked. That I don't mind but in my last turn every time I attacked with Greek Hopites against archers and other riff raff I was loseing like 300 mento 20. Even attacking the camps of mobs was depressing. Hell, they attacked me! LOL . I'm glad The greeks pulled it off then but if I was there leading them I think the Greeks would be speaking Persian today!

Played twice. The first game was my first ever and I got wiped out. On the second attempt I had the upper hand but it ended in a draw.

I think the problem, compared to real life, is that the AI is using his massed bows and is generally trying to avoid contact. In real life, the Persians engaged the Greeks, as they didn't really know what to expect. I guess given the size of their empire, and their numbers at Marathon they probably thought it would be an easy victory.

The game, imo, allows the AI to get units to easily turn about face, run a mile, turn about face again then launch a storm of arrows. I'm not entirely sure that such maneovers would have been possible in real life.

RobP

Just played it twice using new rules for movement/facing and totally wiped out the Persians both times with no loss to the Greeks. I don't think the Persians have been told about the rule changes, will send them an email later along with the severed head of their leader.

Indeed, it looks like the AI has some problems with archers using the 1.2.4 rules.

Changing the sparabara to a mixed BG could be better for the AI (right now, I guess the AI sees the sparabara as an archer BG).

Anyway, it's too early to say anything, the 1.2.4 rules are still being tested.

SRW1962 wrote:I don't think the Persians have been told about the rule changes,

As far as I am aware, the rest of us have not been told about the rule changes either.

76mm wrote:As far as I am aware, the rest of us have not been told about the rule changes either.

The 1.2.4 rules are still being tested.

I have totally redesigned this senario adding a lot more units (as befits a battle of this significance) and the right proportions/types too as far as I can humanly find from all the research I have done. No dodgy baggage train, same basic map, and correct formations for the battle. All in all a much improved scenario (except for the stupid AI, can't do anything about that) and hopefully it will be available very soon via Hoc Est Bellum, the great website full of FOG PC scenarios which was made/run by Lupus.