Slitherine

Can a unit of cav flank charge into a foot unit which is already in combat to its front ?
follow up, can any unit already in combat be charged by further opponents?


confused.com

Yes and Yes. The bases contacting/contacted as a result of the new charge fight in the impact phase and then all the bases in contact fight in the melee phase.

Thanks for quick reply.
Helps a lot ( My son is in for a surprise )

Yes, though you should be aware of some additional restrictions. You can't wheel within 1 MU of the enemy and have an impact count as a flank hit and if you can't make a contact that counts as a flank attack you can't someone engaged in melee.

The rules are reasonably clear here, much better than post from memory.

ethan wrote:Yes, though you should be aware of some additional restrictions. You can't wheel within 1 MU of the enemy and have an impact count as a flank hit and if you can't make a contact that counts as a flank attack you can't someone engaged in melee.

There's a bit in the FAQ restricting a charge not counting as a flank charge

"CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE"
...
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks."

Not sure what happens if you charge someone when pursuing though...

Interesting question, in the absence of any other notes on the subject I would point to the part that says that such a contact during pursuit is considered a charge. Accordingly it appears logical to apply the rules for charging even in those cases. It certainly keeps things simple.

I might suggest applying the clause referring to "contacting enemy other than a legal contact". It references corner to corner and side edge to side edge contacts, but I could see it applied to contacts not qualifying as a flank charge. In those cases the contact does not lead to an impact phase combat. Now, since conforming only applies to BGs that are engaged in close combat, a BG that contacts such enemy not qualifying for an impact combat does not conform, and is not eligible for melee combat. Such contacts would of course only be possible when the BG so contacted was unmasked by the original charge targets evading or fleeing.

It happened when I was umpiring in Roma last year; IIRC I ruled it wasn't a legal charge, even if essentially involuntary (you need to pass a CMT not to contact). I forgot to ask about it after, and Ethan's reply reminded me.

It's quite clear you can't contact, but I don't think it goes far enough. What do pursuing or troops charging without orders do? Do they just stop when they reach the charged BG, or, in the case of charging without orders, not even have to charge? There's nothing they can legally charge in this case, but it's not listed as a reason not to do the test to prevent charging!

Perhaps involuntary contacts like this should be just treated as a frontal charge as per p57, then the charging BG moves to a overlap in movement.


(apologies jules44, we've hijacked your post, don't worry about the discussion, it's a relatively rare situation in a game )

Apologies for continurd hijacking...

I think Troops Charging without Orders is slightly different. if your BGs only possible contact would not be legal, then I don't think they should be compelled to test or charge.

With pursuers, or chargers whose target has evaded, the vast majority of these cases are likely to arise where the routers/evaders are passing by a friendly BG, in which case you would be able to wheel to follow them and avoid the non-legal contact.

peterrjohnston wrote:

ethan wrote:Yes, though you should be aware of some additional restrictions. You can't wheel within 1 MU of the enemy and have an impact count as a flank hit and if you can't make a contact that counts as a flank attack you can't someone engaged in melee.

There's a bit in the FAQ restricting a charge not counting as a flank charge

"CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE"
...
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks."

That applies to most troops, but I don't think that those troops which only count their front rank in melee (elephants, battlewagons, artillery, chariots and knights) can claim immunity for their second rank.

gozerius wrote:

peterrjohnston wrote:There's a bit in the FAQ restricting a charge not counting as a flank charge

"CHARGES NOT QUALIFYING AS A FLANK CHARGE CONTACTING THE FLANK EDGE OF AN ENEMY BASE"
...
Which enemy ranks cannot be so contacted if the front base in the file is already in melee to its front?
The first two ranks."

That applies to most troops, but I don't think that those troops which only count their front rank in melee (elephants, battlewagons, artillery, chariots and knights) can claim immunity for their second rank.

While that seems logical the way the FAQ is phrased currently leaves no doubt that even the 2nd line of such troops is immune to non-flank charges while the 3rd and 4th rank of pikes (who are fighting) is not. Basically its a simplification like many others in FoG, not strictly bound by purely logical considerations.