Slitherine

I cant seam to get thru my thick head on using terraign to my advantage in this game
Example: I need to defend a flank so i post troops 1 hex away from a river, in clear terraign, the thought being if the enemy wants to attack, they will be in the river hex and impact me with all the disorder that being in a river entails.. However the combat resolves as though both units were in the bad going terraign.... makes defending a river crossing basically impossible in game with troops of the same type (because if the defenders are heavies and the attackers are mediums then the mediums will slaughter the heavies , despite the heavies being in good terraign which makes it even worse!)
If you deploy two hexes away from the river then obviously the attacker will also be in clear terraign
I relaize the game mechanic is combat is happening simultaniously , pushing back and forth into both hexes but the above example eally pushes it to the extreme, I feel.

TheGrayMouser wrote:I cant seam to get thru my thick head on using terraign to my advantage in this game
Example: I need to defend a flank so i post troops 1 hex away from a river, in clear terraign, the thought being if the enemy wants to attack, they will be in the river hex and impact me with all the disorder that being in a river entails.. However the combat resolves as though both units were in the bad going terraign.... makes defending a river crossing basically impossible in game with troops of the same type (because if the defenders are heavies and the attackers are mediums then the mediums will slaughter the heavies , despite the heavies being in good terraign which makes it even worse!)
If you deploy two hexes away from the river then obviously the attacker will also be in clear terraign
I relaize the game mechanic is combat is happening simultaniously , pushing back and forth into both hexes but the above example eally pushes it to the extreme, I feel.

According to the terrain effects section in the help, disorder for being in a stream hex should only affect BGs in the hex. (Note that MF are not disordered by streams.) So your HF should have an advantage if defending adjacent to the stream if your opponent has HF or cavalry, etc, that are disordered by streams. If you see that it isn't working this way, please post more details. In other terrain the disordering effect usually does apply to a BG in it or to a BG attacking the BG in it so in that case the fact that your BG was in the open would not help you when attacking the BG in the terrain.

Chris

i'll check this out tonite with a custom scenareo but I am pretty certain that units in clear terraign get the horrible river effects from the enemy that is actually in the river, I believe the combat dialogue ( i play w the details on) showed this as well...
If i can reproduce i'll post a screenshot

I just tested this in a custom scenario, and it does work out appropriately according to the rules (only the unit in the river or bad terrain gets disadvantaged by it). Are you sure the terrain around the river was clear and not broken by some sort of marsh or rocks? Was this a scenario or a DAG battle?

I've posted a screen shot for you to see...

I've also seen this issue a number of times too. In a previous release of FoG I'm sure the help file said that the unit is disordered if it is in the stream or fighting a unit in the stream.

I always found this frustrating for my Pikes as I couldn't seem to get the logical benefit of defending the riverbank.

Maybe this is now fixed... or not in certain circumstances.

Edited: To correct the last sentence.

ha ha how amazing Ryan, the actual battle I was thinking of was the campaign battle that you and me completed a few nites ago! (the ist one) It was the one with the river that went diagnolly across the field of battle

I swear my hastati were one hex away from the river so that when your nasty medium Guals crossed over they would have been upset by disorder, same thing with my Elite triarri that were in clear teraign and your mediums were in the swamp hexes.. As you might recall, that part of my battle line was slaughtered!

Morbio wrote:I've also seen this issue a number of times too. In a previous release of FoG I'm sure the help file said that the unit is disordered if it is in the stream or fighting a unit in the stream.

I always found this frustrating for my Pikes as I couldn't seem to get the logical benefit of defending the riverbank.

Maybe this is now fixed... or not in certain circumstances.

Edited: To correct the last sentence.

Perhaps it is different in the melee phase as opposed to the impact ??

I don't know how the game is supposed to work, but I've never really seen any benefit from defending a river either.

But I have seen units benefiting from attacking from a swamp, a javelin unit in a swamp recently routed my phalanx in clear terrain. Doesn't make any sense to me...

Marshes are a whole different story. Small wonder your triarii were slaughtered.

Deeter

Hmm why would marshes be any different than a river hex? After all your unit is in clear terraign and being attacked by a unit in rugged....

I could understand if it was a difference between hex and hexside terrain as is in some games but i dont think FOG has any hexside terraign (except palisades, but noone uses them)

TheGrayMouser wrote:Hmm why would marshes be any different than a river hex? After all your unit is in clear terraign and being attacked by a unit in rugged....

I could understand if it was a difference between hex and hexside terrain as is in some games but i dont think FOG has any hexside terraign (except palisades, but noone uses them)

Here is the terrain effects chart from the on line help (as of 1.1.2)
http://www.hexwar.com/field-of-glory/he ... chart.aspx

Note the difference between disorder effects with D and VD versus those with vd and d.

Chris

A marsh hex is rough going so HF attacking, even if in clear terrain, are very disordered while MF occupying are merely disordered. Assuming they are impact foot, they still get their ++ POAs and 3 dice. The triarii lose their spear POA so are -- POA at impact with only 2 dice. Assuming they lose the combat, they'll be testing with -2 CMT. Even elite troops won't last long like that.

Deeter

deeter wrote:A marsh hex is rough going so HF attacking, even if in clear terrain, are very disordered while MF occupying are merely disordered. Assuming they are impact foot, they still get their ++ POAs and 3 dice. The triarii lose their spear POA so are -- POA at impact with only 2 dice. Assuming they lose the combat, they'll be testing with -2 CMT. Even elite troops won't last long like that.

Deeter

Ah but thats the key, they were defending, ie sitting minding there own business in a clear hex when attacked from a swamp hex, or in clear and attacked from a river hex. Again I think the game is supposed to assume the combat is simultanious and combat occures in both hexes but the abstraction makes defending using terrain to your advantage impossible...
Also Chris indicates rivers do cause trouble for the unit IN the river hex but not the unit in clear, why this would be differnt for other terrain is lost on me...

deeter wrote:A marsh hex is rough going so HF attacking, even if in clear terrain, are very disordered while MF occupying are merely disordered. Assuming they are impact foot, they still get their ++ POAs and 3 dice. The triarii lose their spear POA so are -- POA at impact with only 2 dice. Assuming they lose the combat, they'll be testing with -2 CMT. Even elite troops won't last long like that.

er, I am assuming that someone in my phalanx has a brain and would therefore when defending (as I was) would stay well back from the marsh rather than chasing LF to there. Frankly, seems rather stupid to me. No sense at all.

Similarly in an ongoing game I am defending a stream. An MF unit (in stream) is attacking my MF unit (in clear). The attacking MF unit does not suffer any penalty at all. Sorry, this doesn't make any sense, unless you assume that 2000 years ago all streams were ankle deep and had no banks. What do our ancient sources say?

TheGrayMouser wrote:

deeter wrote:A marsh hex is rough going so HF attacking, even if in clear terrain, are very disordered while MF occupying are merely disordered. Assuming they are impact foot, they still get their ++ POAs and 3 dice. The triarii lose their spear POA so are -- POA at impact with only 2 dice. Assuming they lose the combat, they'll be testing with -2 CMT. Even elite troops won't last long like that.

Deeter

Ah but thats the key, they were defending, ie sitting minding there own business in a clear hex when attacked from a swamp hex, or in clear and attacked from a river hex. Again I think the game is supposed to assume the combat is simultanious and combat occures in both hexes but the abstraction makes defending using terrain to your advantage impossible...
Also Chris indicates rivers do cause trouble for the unit IN the river hex but not the unit in clear, why this would be differnt for other terrain is lost on me...

In terms of FoG PC, I think attack refers to your BGs chances to inflict hits on the opposing BG, e.g. the number of die rolls you get to hit the opposing BG, not to whether you are the active player or the passive one, or to whether you are tactically attacking or defending. I know I've found it confusing at times, too. As always, the summary display (U short cut) is often the best way to figure out details like this when you find them confusing.

Chris

TheGrayMouser wrote:Also Chris indicates rivers do cause trouble for the unit IN the river hex but not the unit in clear, why this would be differnt for other terrain is lost on me...

Terrain is supposed to happen with an intermingling (basically a push back and forth between the battle groups), which is why marshes or other broken terrain can affect battle groups in the clear connecting it (basically the fact that in order to get at the medium foot, the heavy foot would also have to brave into the broken terrain giving the advantage to the medium foot). This was part of the reason I charged in those two areas (since the benefit was in my favor). The reason why this isn't the case with terrain such as streams, fords, bridges, gully/ditches, is because each of those have a clear defensible position (ie, anchored on the opposite side). This sort of defensible position is not really available when looking at swamps/marshes/broken ground. That's at least my understanding of the justification.

Basically look at terrain such as rivers and ditches as having a hexside barrier, where as all the other terrain will be merged in combat.

RyanDG wrote: Basically look at terrain such as rivers and ditches as having a hexside barrier, where as all the other terrain will be merged in combat.

That's how I see the difference, hexside-edge terrain hurts those trying to cross, whereas hex-filled terrain hurts everyone fighting over it.

maximvs wrote:

RyanDG wrote: Basically look at terrain such as rivers and ditches as having a hexside barrier, where as all the other terrain will be merged in combat.

That's how I see the difference, hexside-edge terrain hurts those trying to cross, whereas hex-filled terrain hurts everyone fighting over it.

I agree except that rivers arn't hexside terrain in game! ( I also think they also get the bad effects but will need to check)

I think it is very counterintuitive but I guess the moral of the story is if you have a heavy unit, make sure all 6 hexes around it are clear hexes or your troops will be sucked into whatever bad going terrian that they might be attacked from....



Edited to eat crow

Ok Im stubborn and had to see with my own eyes the effects of rivers gulley etc. (made a test scenario w all the types played it out etc etc) You guys had it right to think in terms of certain terrains being linear obsticals ie river gullies etc
My problem is I am so used to playing games that have a clear disctinction beween attacker /defender as well as combat in such games is usually to be considered happening in the defenders hex, just took a while for the adjustment to filter thu

Now watch out for I will hunt down those with VD and take all steps avoid it on my own men