Slitherine

How can you tell if your units can be seen or not?

I guess you can't.
There was a short disscussion about this:
viewtopic.php?t=15710

If they shoot you, or beat the cr*p out of you, then you know they've seen you!

mschund wrote:How can you tell if your units can be seen or not?

How could you tell historically, except by your judgement of the lay of the land and the actions of the enemy?

rbodleyscott wrote:

mschund wrote:How can you tell if your units can be seen or not?

How could you tell historically, except by your judgement of the lay of the land and the actions of the enemy?

Historically you were actually on the battlefield viewing in a true 3-dimensional view. that isn't duplicated in the virtual world of FOG. You do not get feed back from your own eyes or that of other commanders or units. That would give the player of the game a major handicap as compared to real life. I find the LOS way to much guesswork to actually be useful in many battle especially with a crowded map. If nothing else give the player the option to turn that ability to acutally if you are being seen on or off.

Yeah but hang on. The player has massively more control over his units, and a much better picture of the battlefield, than any historical general ever had, so some limitations on information are no bad thing. Also, I defy anyone to go and stand in some trees and determine whether passers have seen him or not. Unless they stand and point, how would you know? (and even then how do you know they're actually pointing at you?)

To take information coming in from units, for instance. If the message takes 5 minutes to reach and be relayed to the general, and a similar time for return journey and conveying orders, that's ten minutes out of date. In that time the situation may have changed dramatically.

The other thing to consider is that you would probably hear a large group of men advancing towards you from behind cover (whether in a wood or behind a hill) or even if they were stood still they would most likely be making sounds unless deliberately being quiet, also on dry days there may be dust clouds made by the troops moving.

I do think the LOS feature okay, but no great thing really, sometimes I use it (when I remember) and sometimes I don't and to be honest it doesn't make any real difference to me either way.

Another thing to consider is that even miles of level ground are not 100% flat, and there is always going to be the ability to see the "depth" of an advancing battle line, and thus it would be reasonably difficult to hide formations of men behind one another... I am pretty sure Scipio knew Hannibal had 3 battle lines at Zama, for example.

I think the issue with fow being currently somewhat not relevant in this game is mostly due to the maps and random deployment of forces in the DAG battles. Even "rugged" maps have enough open spaces to see most large bodies of troops and the very shallow deployment area means its basically impossible to set up an ambush like Magos deployment at Trebia.
Hopefully down the road there will be additional features that will allow deployment in depth , dedicated attacker/defender set ups, flank marches etc

Special features for hidden ambush units and proper flank marches would be an excellent addition to the rules, much better than a generalFOW system.

SRW1962 wrote:Special features for hidden ambush units and proper flank marches would be an excellent addition to the rules, much better than a generalFOW system.

I agree with the need for a special feature or option (I don't understand why someone could be opposed to an option that they do not have to use but would allow others to enjoy the game more possibly creating even more players which is good for all of us as Slitherine sells more downloads keeping the multiplayer free.) This is my problem how can you know if it is an hidden ambush? In a laptop or netbook to see the whole battlefield reduces the size of all features to make it difficult to actually get a proper idea of LOS and scrolling around at a zoom in is difficult. I can understand that many people are set in TT mind set where you can see all the units not matter what since it is played on a tabletop while my LOS mindset is with the old Talon Soft turn based WW II games in which you had a very good idea of whether or not you or the opponent were visible. That knowledge improved the stretegy aspect of the game and made ambushes and desguising troops meanful and effective otherwise the whole LOS is rather meaningless. Sorry for the lenght but I am a bit passionate aobut this one.

Actually you couldnt tell necesarily if your units were spotted in those old games (or the updated matrix version either)
What those games did have was a method for telling what hexes you had LOS to, from a specific hex. It was an over lay for lack of better word, you could turn on and off and all the hexes that had LOS from the hex you had Active were highlighted in some manner... However just because you had LOS into a hex didnt mean you automatically spotted the unit in it. Those are great games BTW

i was winning a multiplayer game of urbs legionis with the good guys, having routed the enemy cavalry and totally encircled the infantry fast without suffering any loss and when i started the final attack form the rear,...i ran out of turns. I hadn't noticed there were only 10 turns to go.
a couple more would be useful for methodic players as i am

MesaDon wrote:

SRW1962 wrote:Special features for hidden ambush units and proper flank marches would be an excellent addition to the rules, much better than a generalFOW system.

I agree with the need for a special feature or option (I don't understand why someone could be opposed to an option that they do not have to use but would allow others to enjoy the game more possibly creating even more players which is good for all of us as Slitherine sells more downloads keeping the multiplayer free.) This is my problem how can you know if it is an hidden ambush? In a laptop or netbook to see the whole battlefield reduces the size of all features to make it difficult to actually get a proper idea of LOS and scrolling around at a zoom in is difficult. I can understand that many people are set in TT mind set where you can see all the units not matter what since it is played on a tabletop while my LOS mindset is with the old Talon Soft turn based WW II games in which you had a very good idea of whether or not you or the opponent were visible. That knowledge improved the stretegy aspect of the game and made ambushes and desguising troops meanful and effective otherwise the whole LOS is rather meaningless. Sorry for the lenght but I am a bit passionate aobut this one.

I think you misunderstood me on that one. I am certainly NOT opposed to the FOW system at all, I simply think that the current system is not really that relevant as you cannot really use it to set up an ambush in a DAG game and a hidden ambush feature along with a flank march feature are more useful features. As for the current system, let it stay as it is and by all means have a system for determining which units may or may not be seen there are no doubt many people who love the FOW system and for them it is a nice feature to have.

And not to point out the obvious but this isn't the same as WW2 were men deliberatley made use of every ounce of cover to stop the enemy from seeing them, it was usually quite the opposite in ancient warfare, you wanted the enemy to see your strength so as to intimidate them and thus demoralise them even before the onset of battle.

As for the TT mindset, well I do play TT games, but I also play just as many PC games (TT gamers are not an inferior breed) and I do love WW2 games on the PC (and TT too) got loads of them since the days of commodore 64's etc. And I do know I wouldn't want ancient games to play like WW2 games both in style or general mechanics as both are two very different animals.

SRW1962 wrote:

MesaDon wrote:

SRW1962 wrote:Special features for hidden ambush units and proper flank marches would be an excellent addition to the rules, much better than a generalFOW system.

I agree with the need for a special feature or option (I don't understand why someone could be opposed to an option that they do not have to use but would allow others to enjoy the game more possibly creating even more players which is good for all of us as Slitherine sells more downloads keeping the multiplayer free.) This is my problem how can you know if it is an hidden ambush? In a laptop or netbook to see the whole battlefield reduces the size of all features to make it difficult to actually get a proper idea of LOS and scrolling around at a zoom in is difficult. I can understand that many people are set in TT mind set where you can see all the units not matter what since it is played on a tabletop while my LOS mindset is with the old Talon Soft turn based WW II games in which you had a very good idea of whether or not you or the opponent were visible. That knowledge improved the stretegy aspect of the game and made ambushes and desguising troops meanful and effective otherwise the whole LOS is rather meaningless. Sorry for the lenght but I am a bit passionate aobut this one.

I think you misunderstood me on that one. I am certainly NOT opposed to the FOW system at all, I simply think that the current system is not really that relevant as you cannot really use it to set up an ambush in a DAG game and a hidden ambush feature along with a flank march feature are more useful features. As for the current system, let it stay as it is and by all means have a system for determining which units may or may not be seen there are no doubt many people who love the FOW system and for them it is a nice feature to have.

And not to point out the obvious but this isn't the same as WW2 were men deliberatley made use of every ounce of cover to stop the enemy from seeing them, it was usually quite the opposite in ancient warfare, you wanted the enemy to see your strength so as to intimidate them and thus demoralise them even before the onset of battle.

As for the TT mindset, well I do play TT games, but I also play just as many PC games (TT gamers are not an inferior breed) and I do love WW2 games on the PC (and TT too) got loads of them since the days of commodore 64's etc. And I do know I wouldn't want ancient games to play like WW2 games both in style or general mechanics as both are two very different animals.

I value all the imput from the TT players as they keep many of the rules and interactions with the armies correct but I also feel that because of the way you have to play TT games (I can't afford the cost and stuck to board games including Tide of Iron) we can overlook the fact that PC can be utizied in a different fashion such as a meaningful LOS for battles something not really possible in a board or TT game. I am not ignorant of the differencies in
battle between the Romans and WWII (my minor in History does help some with that). Maybe I am not as skilled in thhese games and need the assistance of a LOS that gives me information. I am sure I am not the only one. Had a C-64 and miss some of the games, even had a Vic 5 or whatever it was called. Last never try to type a reply after including a large qoute on a laptop because the typing window isn't big enough to show what you are typing so excuse all the errors.

OOPs correction it's not the VIC 5 it's the VIC-20. I gotta be getting to old the memory is going

I totally agree that the PC can be utilized in a different fashion to board and TT games and in another thread there was a mention of weather conditions etc. Now how good would it be to have limited visibility due to rain, fog, snowfalling and dust etc. Just imagine if visibility was down to say 10 hex's or less because of such conditions, how good would that be? Or dust being whipped up by massed cavalry charges etc. clouding visibility, or firearms (medieaval of course) causing smoke, come to think of it rain totally affecting some range weapons etc. These are all possibilities that could be explored for the FOW effect, obviously to be turned on or off as the user desires, but it would make things very exciting to say the least.

I'd like to see range come into play with LoS even in good visibility. So, say, at more than 12 hexes, you can tell cavalry from infantry - but that's it. between 6 and 11 you can tell type and arms (protected medium foot heavy weapon, say) but nothing else. 5 hexes or less you get the full picture.

Well guys those are really great ideas and ones that are clearcut and supply a degree of realism I have not seen in any PC games I have played. Now if the powers that be wold make those changes in an update I would be a happy camp follower.