Slitherine

We have make this list for Gonzalo de Cordova Spaniard’s for our Italian wars campaign:
Spanish Veteran pikemen (HF, protected, superior, drilled, , pike) 8-16
Spanish veteran arquebusiers (MF, unprotected, superior, drilled, swordsmen) 8-18
Spanish sword andbuckler men (MF, Prot/arm, superior, drilled, skilled swordsmen) 6-12
Spanish men-at-arms (Cav, armored, average, drilled, lance swordsmen) 0-6
Italian or Burgundian Men-at-arms (KN,H. armor , average, drilled, lancers swordsmen) 0-6
Jinetes (LH, prot/armored, superior, drilled javelins light spear) 4-12
Artillery (light guns) 2-4
Other pikemen (HF, protected, average, drilled, pike) 0-16
Italian handguners (LF, unprotected, firearm) 6-16
Italian crossbowmen (Mf/lf, prot/unprot, average/poor, drill/undrilled, crossbow) 0-8
Mounted handgunners, (LH,CAV? Protected, average, drilled firearm, swordsmen) 0-4
Mounted Crossbowmen (LH, unprotected, average, drilled, crossbow. 0-4
Veteran harquebusiers can interpenetrate other veteran infantry and vice- versa (for front to rear…)
Allies : Naples, Pope, Imperial German
Any comment, suggestion and critic should be very welcome

Based on other lists , what reasons did you give the jinites superior ? (all other jinites being average throughout the spanish lists using them)

mounted handgunners seem to usually be cavalry and armoured, i would suggest following this unless there is a reason they were vastly different to the late 1400's ones.

Spanish veteran arquebusiers (MF, unprotected, superior, drilled, swordsmen) 8-18
should these get anything else, (firearm?) not sure about MF firearm as a troop type yet, but it probably fits here

Ben

Thank for the answer. Well I feel Spanish arquebusier were so good that they did'nt need a firearm.( But I’m thinking that, as the figures have one it will be to much work to take it out ).But that apart the Spanish arquebusiers as MF with the capacity to interpenetrated the other Spaniards is the point about I most want an opinion. You are right about the jinetes, in the case of the mounted arquebusiers I thing they were really mounted infantry .

I would expect the spanish to have firearm troops with sword and bucklar men being the obvious ones to interpenetrate, the pike will form too deep to be truely effective

for this era you also really want the option of field fortifications

Ben

What time frame is that list meant for? After the reforms by Cordova? If yes that would put it well beyond the 1500 threeshold for FoG:AM (and hence would make this the wrong forum). If before the reforms I don't see superior pikes. I also think you overrate the Arquebusiers. If they had been that good the development of the Colunela and later Tercio systems to allow the Arquebusiers to shoot and be protected by the pikemen would probably not been necessary if they had been that good. It would have been simpler and cheaper to give them some armour and let them duke it out with any comers.

The list is intended for the early battles. When the Spanish army of jinetes,arquebusiers and sword and buckler men found himself at a disadvantage against the French. I think Cordova first cope with the problem fighting in the defensive, thickening the arquebusiers ranks and putting them behind field fortifications. That is what I try to reflect. Well superior for the jinetes, pikemen and arquebusiers, seems too optimistic (or too patriotic perhaps?). So I will increase the sword and buckler men; also the jinetes, but make this average, same to the pikemen (but less of them), and make the arquebusiers: MF, prot/unprot . average, drilled firearm,swordsmen. Give them a generous amount of FF. And only sword and buckler men can interpenetrate the arquebusiers. Thanks for the ideas.

Rekila wrote:or too patriotic perhaps

Is that possible?

Well, yes I suppose it is! Especially in the case of Gonzalo and his Spaniards, that’s why I so heavily miss a list to play his first campaign. I have an army based on Neil Thomas (excellent) article in Wargames Illustrated 166 that I want to convert to FoG. We are ending our Charles VIII Italian campaign now and is time to put those French out of Naples!

To be honest if you're doing the very early Italian Wars you probably need to use the Santa Hernandad list classifications. At this early stage the army in Italy wasn't that good (although not terrible) and needed a good commander plus loads of fortifications to beat the French - IMO most of the Army should be Average. The Spanish only become really good in the second decade of the C16th.

is that with or wiithout the swarm tactic Nik?
More seriously when would firearms become a viable medium foot option? At this point they were starting to be used en mass but the rules as is look underwhelming
Ben

Well becuase it ties in with the FoG:R dates I'd suggest that if you are doing the early Italian Wars I'd allow MF with bang-sticks for the campaign - and give them 3MU range as Arquebus will have in FoG:R.

Interesting answers. We at first discharge the Santa Hermandad list because the min/max seems not to fit the Italian campaign. But I agree that the classifications for individual BG should be the main guide, only need to change proportions. Bang-sticks are PD or FF? if PD that will do the job.

Rekila wrote:Interesting answers. We at first discharge the Santa Hermandad list because the min/max seems not to fit the Italian campaign. But I agree that the classifications for individual BG should be the main guide, only need to change proportions. Bang-sticks are PD or FF? if PD that will do the job.

I suspect with bang-sticks Nik refers to the Arquebuse... misguided attempt on British humour I guess.

Too beatiful to be true! In any case I dont see how to model them. (those French Sharks will have to wait)

Karsten

I thought that 'bang-stick' was the literal translation into English of 'Arquebus'...

timmy1 wrote:Karsten

I thought that 'bang-stick' was the literal translation into English of 'Arquebus'...

Arquebus (aka harquebus) stems from the dutch Haakbus which is derived from the German Hakenbüchse. Both would translate as hook gun or maybe hooked tube. "Bang-Stick" doesn't even come close to the actual meaning of the word, it just somewhat descriptive and sounds kinda funny.

Ghaznavid wrote:

timmy1 wrote:Karsten

I thought that 'bang-stick' was the literal translation into English of 'Arquebus'...

Arquebus (aka harquebus) stems from the dutch Haakbus which is derived from the German Hakenbüchse. Both would translate as hook gun or maybe hooked tube. "Bang-Stick" doesn't even come close to the actual meaning of the word, it just somewhat descriptive and sounds kinda funny.

Bloody practical again Karsten, you speak English but do not understand those that speak it. KartonKopf. How would you translate that?

philqw78 wrote:Bloody practical again Karsten, you speak English but do not understand those that speak it. KartonKopf. How would you translate that?

Actually I tend not to claim to understand people that speak English. I do tend to claim to understand people that write English though. Provided they actually do.
As to your question... difficult... probably Dappertesechmodorischehinderindischesteppewildsu not sure though, give me 10-50 years to contemplate it.
(Unless you meant Holzkopf... in which case I think... Du mich auch!)

Ghaznavid wrote:

philqw78 wrote:Bloody practical again Karsten, you speak English but do not understand those that speak it. KartonKopf. How would you translate that?

Actually I tend not to claim to understand people that speak English. I do tend to claim to understand people that write English though. Provided they actually do.
As to your question... difficult... probably Dappertesechmodorischehinderindischesteppewildsu not sure though, give me 10-50 years to contemplate it.
(Unless you meant Holzkopf... in which case I think... Du mich auch!)

I don't think you are a trendy bastard even if you think so. Holzkopf, nein,
karton - noun
Kiste
Karton
Schachtel
Dose
Kassette
Kasten
Packung
Urne
Feld
Box
Loge

kopf - noun-
noggin

. Unless the deutsch have learnt sarcasm? I'll try and feel like an idiot inadvance

du mich auf

its reciprocal