Slitherine

OK, putting this in one place as it covers 3 lists.

Based on the posts so far I am proposing the following:


Jinetes - LH only, Armoured or Unarmoured. (This includes the LH Guardia de Castilla in the Trastamara list)

Celada - LH or Horse option. LH are Armoured, Horse Armoured or Heavily Armoured.

Mounted Arquebusiers - LH or Horse (not Cv?), both can be Armopured or Unarmoured.

Herreruelos and herguletiers - LH or Horse, can be Armoured or Unarmoured.


Please post any objections or corrections ASAP.

OK

nikgaukroger wrote: Herreruelos and herguletiers - LH or Horse, can be Armoured or Unarmoured.

I disagree on this last one. There are plenty of texts where you can clearly see that herreruelos is just how Spaniards called German reiters and similars.
French herguetiers would have their Spanish equivalents on the mounted arquebusiers.

In short, Spanish cavalry of the period included:

Jinetes: OK with our current classification

Celadas: OK with our current classification, I just found new texts where it makes clear that horse classification is also OK.
Just for your information, their lance was much shorter and lighter than those of the gendarmes. It was actually hollow, and carried in a kind of bag. They were equiped with pistols on top of the sword for the melee, but I'm not sure if we should allow pistol option as melee weapon.

Mounted arquebusiers: OK with our current classification

Gendarmes


And Spanish armies in Germany and Flanders also included German mercenary reiters (= herreruelos)

nikgaukroger wrote: Celada - LH or Horse option. LH are Armoured, Horse Armoured or Heavily Armoured.

Just found a very interesting quote about their use as "horse" in FOGR terminology.
There is a manual that recommends attacking enemy mounted units as follows:
- Mounted arquebusiers should attack first, coming close enough to deliver their fire, but still being at enough distance to avoid being catched by an enemy charge.
- Caracolling reiters should follow, inreasing the firepower delivered into the enemy unit, and expecting to disrupt it with repeated volleys
- Once the enemy unit was disordered, celadas charged in order to finish off the job

xavier wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote: Herreruelos and herguletiers - LH or Horse, can be Armoured or Unarmoured.

I disagree on this last one. There are plenty of texts where you can clearly see that herreruelos is just how Spaniards called German reiters and similars.
French herguetiers would have their Spanish equivalents on the mounted arquebusiers.

So just Horse for these then?

nikgaukroger wrote:

xavier wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote: Herreruelos and herguletiers - LH or Horse, can be Armoured or Unarmoured.

I disagree on this last one. There are plenty of texts where you can clearly see that herreruelos is just how Spaniards called German reiters and similars.
French herguetiers would have their Spanish equivalents on the mounted arquebusiers.

So just Horse for these then?

It's just that we shouldn't have a "Herreruelos and herguletiers" line.
The carbine armed cavalry (horse / LH in FOGR terms) is covered by the mounted arquebusiers. This would cover as well the equivalent to French herguletiers
The pistol armed cavalry (horse only) is covered by the German reiters.
What we could do is call them "German mercenary reiters or herreruelos" if you want.

Xavier

OK, I think we are getting some confusion and confaltion between the Caroline Imperialist and Early Spanish Imperial here.

Lets try and untangle.

The Caroline list has "Mounted Arquebusiers" who can be LH or Horse, Armoured or Unarmoured and are armed with Carbine, plus (from 1543) Reiters who are Horse, Heavily Armoured or Armoured and are armed with Pistols and either Swordsmen or Pistols for melee.

The Early Spanish Imperial has the Herreruleos & Herguletiers as Horse, Armoured or Unarmoured and armed with either Carbine only or Carbine & Pistol from 1570, plus Reiters who Horse, Heavily Armoured or Armoured and armed with are Pistol, Pistol. There are no LH arqubusiers or similar in this list.

Please point out what, in your opinion, needs amending.

nikgaukroger wrote:OK, I think we are getting some confusion and confaltion between the Caroline Imperialist and Early Spanish Imperial here.

Lets try and untangle.

The Caroline list has "Mounted Arquebusiers" who can be LH or Horse, Armoured or Unarmoured and are armed with Carbine, plus (from 1543) Reiters who are Horse, Heavily Armoured or Armoured and are armed with Pistols and either Swordsmen or Pistols for melee.

The Early Spanish Imperial has the Herreruleos & Herguletiers as Horse, Armoured or Unarmoured and armed with either Carbine only or Carbine & Pistol from 1570, plus Reiters who Horse, Heavily Armoured or Armoured and armed with are Pistol, Pistol. There are no LH arqubusiers or similar in this list.

Please point out what, in your opinion, needs amending.

Hi Nik,

In my draft for the Early Imperial list there were no herreruelos & herguletiers. I had mounted arquebusiers that were LH or horse, with carbine and pistol (exactly as in the Caroline list). Seems that somebody changed the name from my original one to "herreruelos and herguletiers" when coverting my draft into the current list. That's why we're getting confused here

The only difference between both lists is that while in the caroline list they can be armoured or unarmoured, in the early imperial list I forced them to be armoured, since it seems there was a tendency towards more armour in the fire-weapon armed cavalry.

I also had the mercenary German reiters graded as horse, either with light lance / pistol or shooting pistol / pistol, armoured or heavily armuored. These are the ones that could be called "German reiters or herreruelos".

Cheers,
Xavier

xavier wrote:
In my draft for the Early Imperial list there were no herreruelos & herguletiers. I had mounted arquebusiers that were LH or horse, with carbine and pistol (exactly as in the Caroline list). Seems that somebody changed the name from my original one to "herreruelos and herguletiers" when coverting my draft into the current list. That's why we're getting confused here

Could be - I missed them out when doing the list (I had to write it from your spreadsheet as for some reason it wouldn't copy nicely into Word unlike previous ones). I pulled the names from Heath and used them as it sounds better - then with the LH I'd missed we get the confusion.

I think it is clear and we can make the necessary alterations in a future draft

xavier wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote: Celada - LH or Horse option. LH are Armoured, Horse Armoured or Heavily Armoured.

Just found a very interesting quote about their use as "horse" in FOGR terminology.
There is a manual that recommends attacking enemy mounted units as follows:
- Mounted arquebusiers should attack first, coming close enough to deliver their fire, but still being at enough distance to avoid being catched by an enemy charge.
- Caracolling reiters should follow, inreasing the firepower delivered into the enemy unit, and expecting to disrupt it with repeated volleys
- Once the enemy unit was disordered, celadas charged in order to finish off the job

The more literature I find about them, the more I doubt the LH option is right.
My first draft was LH only based on texts comparing them with jinetes, and sometimes even confusing them.
But in the latest I found, explaining tactical use and full deteils of equipment, seem much more horse (actually king of lighter version of the gendarmes) than LH.
This would also be consistant with DBR grading...

I sent a link to those texts and images to David (it's in Spanish only ) in order to see his final opinion on this...

Xavier

xavier wrote:
The more literature I find about them, the more I doubt the LH option is right.
My first draft was LH only based on texts comparing them with jinetes, and sometimes even confusing them.
But in the latest I found, explaining tactical use and full deteils of equipment, seem much more horse (actually king of lighter version of the gendarmes) than LH.
This would also be consistant with DBR grading...

I sent a link to those texts and images to David (it's in Spanish only ) in order to see his final opinion on this...

Xavier

Might we see some sort of progression?

For example LH or Horse in the Caroline Imperial list and then Horse only in the Early Imperial Spanish? In effect it would be a progression from a sort of "heavy jinete" to a "light man-at-arms".

If so I'd possibly suggest no Heavily Armoured option in the Caroline list to emphasise a progression.

Or an I reading too much into this?

nikgaukroger wrote:

xavier wrote:
In my draft for the Early Imperial list there were no herreruelos & herguletiers. I had mounted arquebusiers that were LH or horse, with carbine and pistol (exactly as in the Caroline list). Seems that somebody changed the name from my original one to "herreruelos and herguletiers" when coverting my draft into the current list. That's why we're getting confused here

Could be - I missed them out when doing the list (I had to write it from your spreadsheet as for some reason it wouldn't copy nicely into Word unlike previous ones). I pulled the names from Heath and used them as it sounds better - then with the LH I'd missed we get the confusion.

I think it is clear and we can make the necessary alterations in a future draft

Ok, I am adding a LH Carbine option to the Early Imperial Spanish.

All the carbine armed horsemen I've called Herguletiers. I've added "Herreruelos" to the reiters so they are now "Reiters or herreruelos".

Have I managed to get that right?

nikgaukroger wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote:

xavier wrote:
In my draft for the Early Imperial list there were no herreruelos & herguletiers. I had mounted arquebusiers that were LH or horse, with carbine and pistol (exactly as in the Caroline list). Seems that somebody changed the name from my original one to "herreruelos and herguletiers" when coverting my draft into the current list. That's why we're getting confused here

Could be - I missed them out when doing the list (I had to write it from your spreadsheet as for some reason it wouldn't copy nicely into Word unlike previous ones). I pulled the names from Heath and used them as it sounds better - then with the LH I'd missed we get the confusion.

I think it is clear and we can make the necessary alterations in a future draft

Ok, I am adding a LH Carbine option to the Early Imperial Spanish.

All the carbine armed horsemen I've called Herguletiers. I've added "Herreruelos" to the reiters so they are now "Reiters or herreruelos".

Have I managed to get that right?

Well, Spanish sources use the term "arcabuceros montados" for all the carbine armed horsemen, that why I simply translated it literally to English as mounted arquebusiers.
I never found the term herguletiers in Spanish texts, I see no point on using it in Spanish lists...

On the other hand, "Reiters or herreruelos" is perfect.

Xavier

xavier wrote: Well, Spanish sources use the term "arcabuceros montados" for all the carbine armed horsemen, that why I simply translated it literally to English as mounted arquebusiers.
I never found the term herguletiers in Spanish texts, I see no point on using it in Spanish lists...

Interesting - it crops up all the time in quite respectable English books on the period I wonder where it came from?

However, I'm sure we can use "arcabuceros montados" if we want to avoid the rather dull "mounted arquebusiers

nikgaukroger wrote:

xavier wrote: Well, Spanish sources use the term "arcabuceros montados" for all the carbine armed horsemen, that why I simply translated it literally to English as mounted arquebusiers.
I never found the term herguletiers in Spanish texts, I see no point on using it in Spanish lists...

Interesting - it crops up all the time in quite respectable English books on the period I wonder where it came from?

However, I'm sure we can use "arcabuceros montados" if we want to avoid the rather dull "mounted arquebusiers

Not logical unless we name all troops in all lists (including bog-standard pikemen and arquebusiers) in their native languages, which I don't think is our intention.

I am happy with "mounted arquebusiers", and so, it seems, is Xavier.

We already have a mix in many lists.

But overall - meh

nikgaukroger wrote:Interesting - it crops up all the time in quite respectable English books on the period I wonder where it came from?

Well English speaking authors have proven notably incapable of grasping the difference between serving-brothers and half-brothers in the Teutonic Order as well, so I've my ideas on that. If it helps though ... blame the Portuguese.

To anybody but specially to David:

Do you think they should be graded as Javelins / - / Swordsmen or rather Javelins / Light lance / Swordsmen?

The spear they used could be used for impact as well, but I'm not sure if what deserved light spear POA in FOG deserves light lance POA in FOGR...

xavier wrote:Do you think they should be graded as Javelins / - / Swordsmen or rather Javelins / Light lance / Swordsmen?

The spear they used could be used for impact as well, but I'm not sure if what deserved light spear POA in FOG deserves light lance POA in FOGR...

The spear? Sounds like they had only one? I might be wrong here, but should anything that had only a single spear get the Javelin Shooting capability? I always assumed that requires possession of several spears.

The spanish Jinetes kept the fighting way of the medieval LH in the Iberian peninsula. They mounted "at the moor way" or "at the Gineta" as this was knowed later.

The main feature of this kind of mounting, is that the spear is used over his shoulder. Jinetes ussually never charge directly using his spear although the size of the spear increased significantly over time.

This kind of mounting still exists in Spain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIt28Alt ... re=related



LH/Javelin/Swordmen to me, buecause this not an equipment question, I think is most important the horse training and how to mount.