Slitherine

In both the Early and Later Crusader lists there is only options to have Allies from the local adjacent states and Kingdoms. Why is there not option to have European visiting Crusading troops included in the lists as either optional or Allies? Surely the national differences of these Crusading armies should be included?

Keith

BlackPrince wrote:In both the Early and Later Crusader lists there is only options to have Allies from the local adjacent states and Kingdoms. Why is there not option to have European visiting Crusading troops included in the lists as either optional or Allies? Surely the national differences of these Crusading armies should be included?

Keith

You have a point re army structure, but what national differences? During the period of the crusades, all the crusading nations used pretty much the same military system on land.

A tough question - give me a couple of days or so to come up with some answers but first of the list should the Norwegian Crusade in 1110 at the siege of Sidon would be quite different force mix from the Early Crusader list.

Keith

BlackPrince wrote:A tough question - give me a couple of days or so to come up with some answers but first of the list should the Norwegian Crusade in 1110 at the siege of Sidon would be quite different force mix from the Early Crusader list.

Keith

True, but did they ever fight any field battles, or only a siege? If the latter, then they don't really need to be catered for in a FOG list.

How far away from the sea did they go? (You will note that my comment above - re the military systems being largely identical on land - was specifically meant to exclude the differently equipped troops of the Genoese and Venetian fleets and any other Crusading fleets - unless evidence can be found of them taking part as a major contingent in field battles, they are not needed as allies in the FOG list).

The Norwegian Crusade like most visitors to the Holy land arrives at Acre. Travelled on to Jerusalem and picked up a few relics in the bazaars followed by dip in the Jordan River. On the way back to the boats stop off and help out at the siege. The siege of Sidon as far as I know did not involve a field battle so it does not meet your criteria to be added as an ally.

You are right that all Western European Armies comprised of the same basic building blocks; Knights, Defensive Spear and Crossbows. Though most armies had small differences, and a bit of variety that is not reflected in the Crusader army list.

Louis IX’s second crack at Egypt in 1249, it was the best organised and prepared Crusade the French forces numbering between 15,000 to 25,000 sailed directly from France to Egypt. The army that fought the river crossing battle at Mansurah was a Feudal French army supported by the Crusaders. At a critical point in the late battle on sunset was the Constable arrived with the King’s unmounted Crossbowmen and screened the Knights forcing the enemy to disengage. Clearly the French had household troops present.

Prior to leaving on the Third Crusade the 3000 Welsh archers and spearmen took the cross in 1188 but due to the two year delay in leaving the actual numbers were a lot less. Richard I wanted to take Welsh and English archers and the Clergy recruited them. Another example of the colour of the English army on the Third Crusade is from Norman Housley’s Fighting for the Cross;
Observers were astonished by the number of robbers, highwaymen and murders who took the cross at Usk in 1188.

Richard has the crime rate in your neighbour been little low for the past 1,000 years?

Keith

BlackPrince wrote:Observers were astonished by the number of robbers, highwaymen and murders who took the cross at Usk in 1188.

Richard has the crime rate in your neighbour been little low for the past 1,000 years?

I don't know, I haven't been around that long.

rbodleyscott wrote:

BlackPrince wrote:Observers were astonished by the number of robbers, highwaymen and murders who took the cross at Usk in 1188.

Richard has the crime rate in your neighbour been little low for the past 1,000 years?

I don't know, I haven't been around that long.

Sure? Now that it is mentioned, you remind me a bit on Catweazle.

All comments aside about your local history are you mulling it over?

Keith

BlackPrince wrote:All comments aside about your local history are you mulling it over?

Keith

Well it will be a long mull, I am afraid, as we are not currently planning to revise FOG lists at least until all the lists are done for FOGR.

I suggest that you repost the results of your investigations on the "Player Designed Lists" board - which is the proper place for them - as they may get forgotten if only posted on this list.

Richard,

I thought revisions and changes maybe a long way off. I just wanted to know if you and your team where open to some new ideas. I will move my post over to the player lists section.

Keith