Slitherine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Azores

http://www.lajes.af.mil/library/factshe ... sp?id=3999

Have just been reading an interesting article on the role of the Azores in WW2 and apparently up until 1942 they were used by the Germans as a sub refueling base! It was only in 1943 that the Portuguese dictator did an about face (the allies were starting to win?) and leased the islands to the USA. Hence, in game terms, the allies shouldnt gain the use of the airbase until Aug 1943 at the earliest (the brits actually set up an airfield in October).

They could obtain it earlier by attacking Portugal I guess but I cant see too many allied players doing that.

schwerpunkt wrote:They could obtain it earlier by attacking Portugal I guess but I cant see too many allied players doing that.

I regularly invade Portugal as the Allies. It probably happens quite often, in fact. It's a good airbase for operations in both France and North Africa.

joerock22 wrote:

schwerpunkt wrote:They could obtain it earlier by attacking Portugal I guess but I cant see too many allied players doing that.

I regularly invade Portugal as the Allies. It probably happens quite often, in fact. It's a good airbase for operations in both France and North Africa.

It certainly is a handy airbase for the allies but currently they get in in Dec 1941 when the US joins the war and dont have to wait instead until they attack Portugal....

schwerpunkt wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Azores

http://www.lajes.af.mil/library/factshe ... sp?id=3999

Have just been reading an interesting article on the role of the Azores in WW2 and apparently up until 1942 they were used by the Germans as a sub refueling base! It was only in 1943 that the Portuguese dictator did an about face (the allies were starting to win?) and leased the islands to the USA. Hence, in game terms, the allies shouldnt gain the use of the airbase until Aug 1943 at the earliest (the brits actually set up an airfield in October).

They could obtain it earlier by attacking Portugal I guess but I cant see too many allied players doing that.

Good research!!! Good Catch!!! Also, from http://www.lajes.af.mil/library/factshe ... sp?id=3999

The British negotiated for the use of the Azores with a 600-year-old treaty (1373 Treaty of Peace). Under an agreement signed on 17 August 1943, Antonio de Oliveira Salazar, president of the Portuguese Council of Ministers, agreed to the British request for basing rights "in the name of the alliance that had existed for over 600 years between Portugal and Great Britain." The British were given use of the Azorean ports of Horta, on the island of Faial, and Ponta Delgada, on the island of Sao Miguel, and the airfields of Lagens Field on Terceira Island and Santana Field on Sao Miguel Island.

On 8 October 1943, the British disembarked at Angra, unloaded equipment and supplies, and trucked them over a narrow, rough road a distance of 11 miles to what would become known as Lajes Field. The British built hangars, developed a large power plant, and set up living quarters. Their main task was preparing a surface that allowed heavy aircraft to land.

The first U-boat "kill" came when a B-17 from Squadron 220 of the Number 247 Group Royal Air Force, Coastal Command attacked an exposed submarine on 9 November 1943 just one month after British Forces arrived at Lajes Field. The contributions of the Azores and the three British anti-submarine squadrons at Lajes were one of the turning points in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1943.

Though I don't think we have any available country slots left so that we could make the Azores activate in August 1943. Right now it activates when the US does and about 1 1/2 years too early. We could tie it to the activation of Free France, which would preclude it's use for Torch and prior to Torch. However; on average, that'd still be too early by 9 months to a year.

I can look into finding an unused minor power that we can rename to the Azores. Then we can let them join the Allies in August 1943.

Should we code some changes about Portugal so if the Allies DoW then the Azores will join the Axis immediately and if the Axis DoW then the Azores will join the Allies immediately.

If I can't find a free neutral country I flag the Azores as Free French so it will activate when Free France joins the Allies. It's usually late 1942.

Edit: We don't have a free country to use. So what do you think we should do then? It's probably possible to set the ownership of the hex to be Portuguese and then check the date and make the hex US when you pass the turn number that matches August 1943. It's probably also possible to write a message about this so people are aware that USA leases Azores as an airbase from Portugal.

Shall I look into this? We could e. g. try it out in our new game (you just restart the first turn). I can fix this in maybe 30 minutes if you agree and we can playtest this internally before we release new versions of the scenarios, message files and game.class.

Stauffenberg wrote:I can look into finding an unused minor power that we can rename to the Azores. Then we can let them join the Allies in August 1943.

Should we code some changes about Portugal so if the Allies DoW then the Azores will join the Axis immediately and if the Axis DoW then the Azores will join the Allies immediately.

If I can't find a free neutral country I flag the Azores as Free French so it will activate when Free France joins the Allies. It's usually late 1942.

Edit: We don't have a free country to use. So what do you think we should do then? It's probably possible to set the ownership of the hex to be Portuguese and then check the date and make the hex US when you pass the turn number that matches August 1943. It's probably also possible to write a message about this so people are aware that USA leases Azores as an airbase from Portugal.

Shall I look into this? We could e. g. try it out in our new game (you just restart the first turn). I can fix this in maybe 30 minutes if you agree and we can playtest this internally before we release new versions of the scenarios, message files and game.class.

I vote that you make the change and we give it a go.

While I am all in favour of striving for historical accuracy, Portugal's dictator Salazar was NOT a Nazi, he was a Fascist. There is, in fact, a difference. In his own country, prior to WW2, he not only suppressed the Communists; he also suppressed the National Socialists.

I have not read a lot about Portugal during WW2, but everything I have read leads me to believe the following:

1. While it is true that German u-boats refueled in the Azores prior to 1943, he would not have denied refueling to British or American ships had they requested it. As a neutral power, the international law that would apply would dictate that any belligerent ship may enter harbour, refuel and replenish, but must stay no longer than 24 hours.

2. Salazar was interested in avoiding the war at all costs. Not because of any pacifism, but because he felt it was in Portugal's best interests.

3. He leased the Azores to the UK because the UK and US brought enormous pressure to bear on him. It had little to do with whether Germany was winning or losing---Germany in fact could not have mounted an invasion of the Azores anyway. (CONTINUED BELOW)

Continuing on...

I think that an acceptable course would be to make the Azores activate when the Free French activate. While still inaccurate, it is better than the other alternative whereby if the Allied DOW Portugal, then the Azores go Axis. I can't see any reason why that would have happened. More likely, if the Allies had invaded Portugal, they would have invaded the Azores simultaneously. And if NOT, the administrator of the Azores would not be likely to think that the Axis would help; how could they?

Should we maybe make Azores Allied if Portugal is active on either side? That means the Allies need to DoW Portugal to get Azores prior to August 1943. I can easily code that as well. I change the hex from Portuguese to US if Portugal is not neutral or the specific date has passed.

Stauffenberg wrote:Should we maybe make Azores Allied if Portugal is active on either side? That means the Allies need to DoW Portugal to get Azores prior to August 1943. I can easily code that as well. I change the hex from Portuguese to US if Portugal is not neutral or the specific date has passed.

If that is easily done, then I think it is worth doing. That way, we maintain historical accuracy, with the Azores becoming available in August. And if Germany invades Spain, and then Portugal, the Azores looks to the Allies for help (which makes sense to me).

In the last few minutes, I have done a bit of reading about Salazar. He was an interesting guy, and he certainly stayed in power for a long time. I see that he was going to be a priest, but then became a lawyer. And then, of course, dictator for life

Hi,
I feel this is fine, but usually when I have a chance I just use it as a jumping point to bring long range aircraft to North Africa. I rarely do I get a chance to attack anything. (timing issue) There was not a problem with the original BJR Mod. Why now?

My 2 cents...

pk867

Stauffenberg wrote:Should we maybe make Azores Allied if Portugal is active on either side? That means the Allies need to DoW Portugal to get Azores prior to August 1943. I can easily code that as well. I change the hex from Portuguese to US if Portugal is not neutral or the specific date has passed.

I vote for the change.

pk867 wrote:I feel this is fine, but usually when I have a chance I just use it as a jumping point to bring long range aircraft to North Africa. I rarely do I get a chance to attack anything. (timing issue) There was not a problem with the original BJR Mod. Why now?

I've often use the Azores as a base for sub hunting as soon as the USA enters the war and for flying a tactical bomber to the Gibraltar airbase in time to support Torch. Both of these are historically inaccurate in that the Azores wasn't available to the US, or the Brits, until August 1943. Now with the proposed change, if the western allies want the Azores prior to that they must first DOW Portugal. Also, if the axis DOW Portugal the Azores become American.

I like the change as well.

I've now changed the code and sent it to the development team. This is what I did.
1. The Azores airbase is now controlled by Portugal in all scenarios except the 1944 scenario
2. The Azores airbase is ceased by USA if Portugal is DoW'ed upon regardless of which side makes the DoW. A message is shown that USA ceases the Azores.
3. The Azores airbase will change to US control in August 11th 1943 if Portugal is still neutral. A message about Portugal leasing the Azores to the Allies is shown.

Stauffenberg wrote:I've now changed the code and sent it to the development team. This is what I did.
1. The Azores airbase is now controlled by Portugal in all scenarios except the 1944 scenario
2. The Azores airbase is ceased by USA if Portugal is DoW'ed upon regardless of which side makes the DoW. A message is shown that USA ceases the Azores.
3. The Azores airbase will change to US control in August 11th 1943 if Portugal is still neutral. A message about Portugal leasing the Azores to the Allies is shown.

wow! That was a quick response! Sounds like a good way of dealing with it.

PS: Just an English spelling item: the word "cease" should be "sieze"
Great work!

schwerpunkt wrote: wow! That was a quick response! Sounds like a good way of dealing with it.

PS: Just an English spelling item: the word "cease" should be "sieze"
Great work!

And just to be totally pedantic on the topic of spelling, "sieze" should be spelled "seize".

For some reason, the rule "i before e, except after c" does not apply to this word. English spelling rules are made to be broken.

Happycat wrote:

schwerpunkt wrote: wow! That was a quick response! Sounds like a good way of dealing with it.

PS: Just an English spelling item: the word "cease" should be "sieze"
Great work!

And just to be totally pedantic on the topic of spelling, "sieze" should be spelled "seize".

For some reason, the rule "i before e, except after c" does not apply to this word. English spelling rules are made to be broken.

Funny that, I thought the word looked odd but decided that it was the font fooling me. English is definately full of odd spellings - compare seize to siege which does obey the i before e rule.

Happycat wrote:
And just to be totally pedantic on the topic of spelling, "sieze" should be spelled "seize".

For some reason, the rule "i before e, except after c" does not apply to this word. English spelling rules are made to be broken.

The rule is, "i before e, except after c sometimes" I always wondered if the sometimes applied to the "after c" part or to the "i before e" part. Thank goodness for spell check.

I've now fixed the spelling error in message_eng.txt. Neil, do you want me to send you all the updated files so you can check for yourself the new Azores rule and also the updated supply rule regarding Russian units in Allied territory and vice versa?

Excellent rule change.