Slitherine

Hi, I know much will depend on the wider strategy followed, the situation in the Middle East etc., but for the Germans (only), what sort of numbers of TAC, FTR, ARM, MECH, INF do people think are generally required *in total* (i.e. not just on the Eastern Front) by the time Barborassa is launched (against a human opponent)? I know there's different ways this can be approached (e.g. prioritising MECH over ARM or vice-versa), but am just trying to get an idea of what would be sensible numbers! Also how many leaders are needed on the Eastern Front in 1941? Thanks!

I'm a fan of the single strong thrust to Moscow , Gorky and Omsk. In parallel I attack with a much weaker infantry army in the south , to capture some cities (especially Kiev, and Odessa). With this strat I think it's ok to have two good leaders, Manstein in the north and Rundstead in the south. Since speed is essential, and armour is quickest, I invest early labs into Armour and try to build extra armour before the attack starts. Once Barbarossa has started I build only Infantry and Garrisons.

(I have heard it said on the forums that Mech is better at attacking cities then Armour, but am note sure this is true).

I have found Tac Air to be effective, but also very expensive, since even the most primitive Russian Infantry seems to routinely hit my Stuka's with a step loss. So I just make do with the two german Tac Air plus the Italian TacAir. Another problem with the Air Units is finding space for them, and protecting them in my narrow bridghead.

This start assumes of course that you're trying to defeat the Russkies, if you're just attempting to grab some land before the inevitable retreat west then this strat may not be so good.

That's a great question about mech vs cities. Does mech get the penalty that armor units get?

jjdenver wrote:That's a great question about mech vs cities. Does mech get the penalty that armor units get?

Not sure, though I think ARM is worse than MECH generally in mud weather

Mech units are handled the same as INF. Only armored units have additional penalties. Movement, attack and defense determined by terrain, supply level, and weather.

I just checked the Manual for the Vanilla game, and it doesn't mention any penalty for Armour against Cities.

Even if there is a penalty, I wouldn't swap my Armour for Mech, I tend to use Infantry for City attacks anyway. But before attacking I like to surround the City, and that's where the Armour comes in Handy.

BTW I still don't have a clear reply to my original question, i.e. how many units of each type are needed for Barbarossa?

it's kinda difficult to answer, I think my instinctive response would "All of them".

Russia is so important that I'd prefer to just leave Garrisons in every other theatre, have a small reserve in germany, and have everthing else fighting the reds.

pk867 wrote:Mech units are handled the same as INF. Only armored units have additional penalties. Movement, attack and defense determined by terrain, supply level, and weather.

Hm, I don't think this is accurate because I know that Mech moves very slowly in forest terrain so there must be some similarity between mech and armor at least for movement. This of course makes me unable to verify the rest of your answer.

Ronnie, Stauffenberg, anyone know?

timhicks wrote:it's kinda difficult to answer, I think my instinctive response would "All of them".

Russia is so important that I'd prefer to just leave Garrisons in every other theatre, have a small reserve in germany, and have everthing else fighting the reds.

That's as maybe, but how many to build? e.g. 6ARM total? 5 TAC? More?

oxford_guy wrote:BTW I still don't have a clear reply to my original question, i.e. how many units of each type are needed for Barbarossa?

I was hoping Stauffenberg would answer this. He seems to have a good handle on this but my feeling is at MINIMUM:

5 FTR (2 in Med, possibly 1 in France, 2-3 USSR)
4-5 TAC (all USSR)
4-5 ARM (I like ARM more than MECH)
2-3 MECH (see above, I prefer ARM)
12-13 INF (1 Finland, 3 med, 8-9 USSR)
3-4 leaders (1 med, 2-3 USSR, 1 floating for Norway/France/USSR)

Once war starts I try to build more FTRs and INF first. INF can rail to keep up w/ your advance. FTRs can fly/rail in so that when spring '42 arrives you have about 4-5 FTRs in USSR and a couple of extra FTRs in the west to float between Italy/France/Norway. I also like to build an extra STR because it's very good to base far from allied CV's in the Med but can still strike the central Med w/o getting its airbase strafed by CV's. It can also intervene off the coast of Norway from Denmark.

I usually keep at least 3-4 minor ally INF in France, 1 minor ally INF in Yugo, and the rest cleaning up Soviet pockets in USSR.

jjdenver wrote:

oxford_guy wrote:BTW I still don't have a clear reply to my original question, i.e. how many units of each type are needed for Barbarossa?

I was hoping Stauffenberg would answer this. He seems to have a good handle on this but my feeling is at MINIMUM:

Thanks for the info. (espc. as I'm your opponent in one of your games... I will get my next turn to you soon, honest...), does anyone else have similar or different opinions?

I checked one game I had where I attacked in June 22nd 1941. This includes both units you started the game with and units you built since September 1939.

Germany:
Manstein, Guderian and Runstedt
6 arm (2 in Romania)
4 mech
17 inf (2 in Finland, 3 in Romania)
4 ftr (2 in Romania)
6 tac (2 in Romania)
2 str (1 in Romania)
1 BB (for shore bombardment)
1 DD (for shore bombardment)

Italy:
Messe
1 arm
4 inf

Romania:
1 ftr
1 mech
5 inf
1 DD

Hungary:
1 mech
3 inf

Bulgaria:
3 inf

Finland:
1 ftr
3 inf

All Axis minor garrisons are on duty in Greece and Yugoslavia. Some more will be railed to Russia to garrison captured Russian cities.

I build 3 inf units each turn for several turns after I started Barbarossa. I don't need more fighters and only build them (2-3 more) in the fall. The key is to get enough land units in Russia so you can get to the main Russian defense line and start building a double line for the first severe winter.

I think a force like this is powerful enough to almost destroy the entire Russian front line on turn 1. Turn 2 can be used to mop up the remains while the main force move eastwards. I make sure that each Russian city, corps and mech unit is attacked by a tac. Str's are nice to bombard enemy garrisons in open terrain. They don't inflict a lot of damage, but the lower the enemy efficiency so the Germans take less losses while attacking.

Before Barbarossa I've just tech advances for all infantry techs, armor and air. All units are upgraded before I launch Barbarossa. If you carefully build your labs at the right time you can have the tech upgrades so early so you can build all new units for Barbarossa AFTER the upgrade and not have to pay for upgrading them. So I usually build my 3 extra armor units in February and 2 extra mech in March and 6-8 infantry in April/May and June 2nd.

I have 4 tac bombers when I attack Greece and Yugoslavia late in 1940. The second str and 2 extra ftr's are build in the spring of 1940 so they can be used to bombard London and Birmingham. I also have a total of 6 subs at the time of Barbarossa. 3 German inf and several Italian units are transported to Libya.

Such a strong Barbarossa is possible if the Germans don't invest too much in Libya. I keep the tac bombers and some fighters in Albania / Greece so they can fly to Crete to punish any British move towards Tobruk. They're flown or railed to the east front just before Barbarossa begins.

It's not easy being the Russians against such an Axis attack force. The only way to survive 1941 is to defend in the rear. If the Russians try to defend along the Dnepr then this attack force can crush the main Russian defense and overrun then in 1942.