Page 1 of 4
Wretched flanks again...Aaaargh!!!!
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:21 pm
by AlanYork
Apologies for starting a third topic in as many days guys but I am really making a concerted effort to get to grips with a rules set that has given me more trouble to learn than WRG 6th, DBM and DBR combined. Hopefully this will be my last topic for a while, time to let somebody else have a go, I don't want to monopolise the forum. Anyway.....
Flank contacts....just looking at the very last diagram in the book in Appendix 7 which has a unit hit in flank that can't turn bases because it's being hit in the rear too, if those rear chargers weren't there and the unit could turn bases to flank, geometrically speaking wouldn't that turn and shuffle backwards to maintain unit integrity leave just one enemy base in contact and qualifying to fight at impact and not two? It might even leave the "stepped forward" enemy cavalry base without anyone in contact at all once the flank conform has been done, so what are they supposed to do then? Is this what is meant?? I actually tried this with figure bases and it seemed to work out in the odd way described above. It's left me puzzled.
Roads....can you roll to move/pivot them etc? They are after all a linear feature. What if they are running through a village? Do they just move to a different part of the village base? Come out at a different angle? It must've been clear when it was written but I can't fathom it out.
Re: Wretched flanks again...Aaaargh!!!!
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:02 am
by philqw78
AlanYork wrote:Flank contacts....just looking at the very last diagram in the book in Appendix 7 which has a unit hit in flank that can't turn bases because it's being hit in the rear too, if those rear chargers weren't there and the unit could turn bases to flank, geometrically speaking wouldn't that turn and shuffle backwards to maintain unit integrity leave just one enemy base in contact and qualifying to fight at impact and not two? It might even leave the "stepped forward" enemy cavalry base without anyone in contact at all once the flank conform has been done, so what are they supposed to do then? Is this what is meant?? I actually tried this with figure bases and it seemed to work out in the odd way described above. It's left me puzzled.
I'm at work so can't see the diagram but. Each base can only fight and be fought once in a single combat. It doesn't matter if 2 bases contact a single base. Only one of those contacting gets to fight and it only gets to fight one of the enemy, the one chosen by the side with most bases in contact. So turning to face immediately upon contact will make no difference, though if the attackers are armed differently it may in later combat phases. If the base charged must close up to retain contact with its BG the chargers move up also.
AlanYork wrote:Roads....can you roll to move/pivot them etc? They are after all a linear feature. What if they are running through a village? Do they just move to a different part of the village base? Come out at a different angle? It must've been clear when it was written but I can't fathom it out.
This is in the appendix. It syays specifically about roads, rivers and coast
Re: Wretched flanks again...Aaaargh!!!!
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:53 am
by david53
AlanYork wrote:Roads....can you roll to move/pivot them etc? They are after all a linear feature. What if they are running through a village? Do they just move to a different part of the village base? Come out at a different angle? It must've been clear when it was written but I can't fathom it out.
Page 140 and 141
A road must pass through a village if there is one. bullet four page 140
The initial deployment roll is not needed for roads page 141
There does seem to a problum here if the road runs through a village see page 140
But you get 3,4,or 5 on your adjustment roll how does it move or does it cancel out rule on page 140?
Must admit not thought this out as few roads have been placed on battles i have fought/
Re: Wretched flanks again...Aaaargh!!!!
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:18 pm
by AlanYork
philqw78 wrote:AlanYork wrote:Flank contacts....just looking at the very last diagram in the book in Appendix 7 which has a unit hit in flank that can't turn bases because it's being hit in the rear too, if those rear chargers weren't there and the unit could turn bases to flank, geometrically speaking wouldn't that turn and shuffle backwards to maintain unit integrity leave just one enemy base in contact and qualifying to fight at impact and not two? It might even leave the "stepped forward" enemy cavalry base without anyone in contact at all once the flank conform has been done, so what are they supposed to do then? Is this what is meant?? I actually tried this with figure bases and it seemed to work out in the odd way described above. It's left me puzzled.
I'm at work so can't see the diagram but. Each base can only fight and be fought once in a single combat. It doesn't matter if 2 bases contact a single base. Only one of those contacting gets to fight and it only gets to fight one of the enemy, the one chosen by the side with most bases in contact. So turning to face immediately upon contact will make no difference, though if the attackers are armed differently it may in later combat phases. If the base charged must close up to retain contact with its BG the chargers move up also.
AlanYork wrote:Roads....can you roll to move/pivot them etc? They are after all a linear feature. What if they are running through a village? Do they just move to a different part of the village base? Come out at a different angle? It must've been clear when it was written but I can't fathom it out.
This is in the appendix. It syays specifically about roads, rivers and coast
If you look at the diagram, the very last one in the last appendix p167 you will see that the cavalry hit the end of the infantry line hitting both infantry bases the front one and the back one. The text says the infantry would turn both their bases if there was room to do so (there isn't, but for the purposes of this imagine that there is.).
If the infantry then turn 90 degrees (leaving their unit in a sideways L shape) if the cavalry continue to advance straight forward to close the gap their right hand base will hit thin air. If that's the case the cavalry could shuffle a bit to their left but even if they do so I can't see any way that they can maintain contact with the infantry base that is now the rear of the two that turned. Hence my point that the cavalry started off hitting two bases but ended up just hitting one.
So what do the cavalry do then? Do they do they merely advance forward and if so what about the "stepped forward" base who is on a limb fighting nobody, does he slide back to join his friends?
As for roads I realise there is no roll to see where they go to start with but there does seem to be an adjustment roll. If the road is going through a village my query is what then happens to the road? If it can be slid does it have to stay in contact with the village? Perhaps starting running through the centre of the village but end up running along its western or eastern edges? If it has to pivot, lets say starting in a north - south axis through the settlement, if it ends up running north east - south west won't a longer road be required? It's a longer road if it runs diagonally and still has to touch the table edges rather than running long table edge to long table edge parallel to the table's short edge.
The same applies if it doesn't run through a village, an adjustment roll that allows a player to pivot it, again lets say from north - south to north east - south west will surely require a longer road won't it?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:30 pm
by kevinj
The normal rules would apply, but they are affected by the shape of the piece. If you can move a road then the only option is to slide it sideways, providing it runs from one long edge to the other. If your cunning opponent has placed a road that runs from one long edge and then contains a bend to take it to a short edge, you cannot move it without either leaving a gap at one end, or sliding a part of it off table, neither of which are allowed. Guess what shape most roads are!
On the other hand, if you can move it, I can't see any reason why you couldn't move it out of or away from a village, as the rule only covers placement and it would be no different to, for example, moving a piece within 4 MU of an existing one.
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:33 pm
by philqw78
The foot would turn like this. Both bases have been contacted so both turn, but individually.
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:44 pm
by philqw78
As for roads providing you fulfill the rules on P131 after dicing do what you want. However since you cannot alter the size of terrain pieces pivoting becomes impossible. And, as it states, after sliding if there is a village the road must at least touch it.
Edit
Pivotting would be possible but only 180 to move the road its own width closer to or further from the table edge, so pointless really
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:15 pm
by AlanYork
philqw78 wrote:The foot would turn like this. Both bases have been contacted so both turn, but individually.
Ah, righto. Well if ever an illustration should be in the book then that one is it! No way in a million years would I have interpreted the rules like that, in fact all they seem to say is the contacted troops turn 90 degrees. I think could be right but I'd never have come to that conclusion without help and I really don't think I'd be alone in that.
As for roads well yes it does indeed say on page 131 that it must pass through a village if there is one but by stating on page 140 that PRIOR to adjustment "A road must pass through or touch a village if there is one", the implication is that AFTER adjustment that no longer applies. Again I think you are correct but the rules do seem to contradict themselves or at least invite differing interpretations.
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:22 pm
by hammy
philqw78 wrote:The foot would turn like this. Both bases have been contacted so both turn, but individually.
Phil are you just trying to confuse things deliberately?
I have never seen anything turn like that.
Looking at the diagrams on 167 the only issue I can see is that the BG of light horse is refered to as cavalry but other than that it all looks OK to me.
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:24 pm
by AlanYork
hammy wrote:philqw78 wrote:The foot would turn like this. Both bases have been contacted so both turn, but individually.
Phil are you just trying to confuse things deliberately?
I have never seen anything turn like that.
Looking at the diagrams on 167 the only issue I can see is that the BG of light horse is refered to as cavalry but other than that it all looks OK to me.
So what does happen then if not that? If Phil's wrong how do you get around the issue I raised?
I will say I have tried out Phil's solution with real bases and even then the left hand side cavalry base ends up hitting the right corner of the front infantry base that has turned whilst the right hand cavalry base ends up hitting the same infantry base with the cavalry's base's left hand corner hitting pretty much smack in the middle of the infantry's front edge.
Geometrically speaking it seems almost impossible to get one cavalry base fighting the front turned infantry base and the other cavalry base fighting the rear turned infantry base.
Regards
Alan
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:41 pm
by hammy
AlanYork wrote:So what does happen then if not that? If Phil's wrong how do you get around the issue I raised?
There are a number of situations where conforming isn't possible. A flank charge that hits a rear corner is an interesting and unusual one.
The impact would be 2 bases on 2 bases so the chargers would have a dice advantage at impact (assuming a disrupted target) compared to a 1 base on 1 base charge so it is a good thing for the chargers.
The target would turn both bases to face the charge. The rules for charging a flank (P55) say that the turn uses the normal rules for turning which happen to be on P44 and the rule there clearly states that the turned formation will be at least as wide as it was deep and that other bases are repossitioned behind.
The rule on P55 continues to state that if turning creates a gap between the bases that have been turned and other bases of the BG then the turned bases are shifted back and the flank chargers move forward to retain contact.
I would contend that the end formation would be
Code: Select all
Starting formation:
111122223333
444455556666
Ending formation:
1111222263
4444555563
63
63
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:44 pm
by AlanYork
AlanYork wrote:hammy wrote:philqw78 wrote:The foot would turn like this. Both bases have been contacted so both turn, but individually.
Phil are you just trying to confuse things deliberately?
I have never seen anything turn like that.
Looking at the diagrams on 167 the only issue I can see is that the BG of light horse is refered to as cavalry but other than that it all looks OK to me.
So what does happen then if not that? If Phil's wrong how do you get around the issue I raised?
I will say I have tried out Phil's solution with real bases and even then the left hand side cavalry base ends up hitting the right corner of the front infantry base that has turned whilst the right hand cavalry base ends up hitting the same infantry base with the cavalry's base's left hand corner hitting pretty much smack in the middle of the infantry's front edge.
Geometrically speaking it seems almost impossible to get one cavalry base fighting the front turned infantry base and the other cavalry base fighting the rear turned infantry base.
Regards
Alan
Hammy we cross posted at around the same time so I'm re posting here. Whilst I see what you're saying in your last posting that doesn't solve the problem of which enemy the cavalry actually contact. Where do the mounted bases actually end up?
Regards
Alan
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:51 pm
by hammy
Aha, I think I see the issue.
If you look at P 91 Deciding how many dice
it says "only bases coming into contact as a result of a charge in the impact phase fight"
I have always taken this to include any bases that will not be in contact after a compulsary turn. The rules say coming into contact after all.
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:53 pm
by hammy
The mounted bases end up in the melee with one base in frontal contact and one in overlap with the mounted BG reformed.
I think you are trying to make this more complex than it is but I can see something in your arguments.
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:36 am
by philqw78
hammy wrote:philqw78 wrote:The foot would turn like this. Both bases have been contacted so both turn, but individually.
Phil are you just trying to confuse things deliberately?
I have never seen anything turn like that.
Looking at the diagrams on 167 the only issue I can see is that the BG of light horse is refered to as cavalry but other than that it all looks OK to me.
And I haven't seen men on the moon.
Read the thread It has got F** all to do with LH
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:13 am
by philqw78
hammy wrote:I would contend that the end formation would be
Code: Select all
Starting formation:
111122223333
444455556666
Ending formation:
1111222263
4444555563
63
63
Nothing like the picture referred to
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:17 am
by philqw78
AlanYork wrote:Geometrically speaking it seems almost impossible to get one cavalry base fighting the front turned infantry base and the other cavalry base fighting the rear turned infantry base.
Regards
Alan
Turn the bases upon contact, as the rules say they must. It works.
But you must wait 'til monday for the geometry
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:36 am
by hammy
philqw78 wrote:hammy wrote:I would contend that the end formation would be
Code: Select all
Starting formation:
111122223333
444455556666
Ending formation:
1111222263
4444555563
63
63
Nothing like the picture referred to
This diagram is attempting to explain what happens if there is not additional BG of cavalry hitting the target BG in the rear.
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:27 pm
by gozerius
I'm far more interested in how the bases which contacted the rear are supposed to conform, since the far right enemy base is facing to the front, with enemy in contact with its side edge, and there is no guidance on what happens to bases contacted by a conform against the rear edge.
This BG is totally screwed, but can't possibly adjust itself to deal with all the whupping it's about to take.
Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:50 pm
by philqw78
hammy wrote:This diagram is attempting to explain what happens if there is not additional BG of cavalry hitting the target BG in the rear.
So you are saying that after conforming less dice should be thrown than if they did not conform, which is surely wrong.