Slitherine

I’ve got myself a MRR army and some questions, the Hastati and Principes are together in a battle group with the Triari behind in support. Yes?
When do the Triari get to fight?
Ordinarily I would have my best units in front, but in this case they are deployed at the back and only fight if the Hastati and Principes flee or are destroyed? Doing a job that could be done by some cheap filler?
I try to play with at least a nod to ancient tactics but in this case it would seem best just to abandon them, as 16 points a base seems a bit much to pay for spectators or am I missing something.
Thanks

Steve63 wrote:I’ve got myself a MRR army and some questions, the Hastati and Principes are together in a battle group with the Triari behind in support. Yes?
When do the Triari get to fight?
Ordinarily I would have my best units in front, but in this case they are deployed at the back and only fight if the Hastati and Principes flee or are destroyed? Doing a job that could be done by some cheap filler?
I try to play with at least a nod to ancient tactics but in this case it would seem best just to abandon them, as 16 points a base seems a bit much to pay for spectators or am I missing something.
Thanks

1) It is historical
2) Cheap filler cannot count as rear support for better quality BGs
3) 1 BG of 2 Triarii can (if placed behind the join between them) support 2 BGs of 4 Hastati/Princpies, which is in fact very cost-effective.

Thank for the reply
But when, if ever do they get to fight?

Steve63 wrote:Thank for the reply
But when, if ever do they get to fight?

If you're good, they never need to.

Otherwise, they fight either 1) when the BG they are supporting routs and they find themselves suddenly constituting the front line, or 2) if the fight in front of them is going well enough that they can head off to look for a flank to exploit.

Marc

Steve63 wrote:Thank for the reply
But when, if ever do they get to fight?

The goal of battle is to defeat the enemy, not to ensure that everything in your army fights.

Mid-Republican Roman legions were drilled and organised for reliability, not for dash.

Historically, many armies kept their best troops in reserve and hoped they never had to fight. Casualties from veteran units are not as easy to replace as cannon fodder.

The Roman organisation is "belt-and-braces", but sooner or later you will be thankful for it.

You have to have them - but not necessarily behind the hastati / principes.

I think combining 2 BG's of 2 into one unit of 4 (elite, heavy foot, offensice spearmen, armoured, drilled..) makes them a great unit to anchor your middle.

Put them up against Carthagnian elephants or other offensive spearmen (like the African spearmen) where all those POA's can make a huge difference.

It's very hard to hold back some of your best fighting troops although it is historical. The MRR list is already one of the most restricted out there due to historical 'correctness' (whatever that is), so I think it is okay to deploy the triarii in some place where they have more impact on the fight.
Having Triarii to fight pursuers of a destroyed H/P-BG seems a bad idea, as these 2-base-BGs are very vulnerable to overlaps. You will soon lose the next 2 AP.

If I have to fight other spearmen/pikemen or mounted, I like to have them IN the front line between the two H/P-BGs.
If you fight other impact foot (especially historical enemies) it may be a good idea to deploy them for rear support, as it is critical not to drop in the impact phase.
You're better in melee anyway, so you have only to 'survive' impact.

Cheap filler? No self-respecting Roman legion would consider rabble behind them as anything other than a nuisance! ....er that and the rules don't allow you to use crap to support quality....

The only problem with the Triarii is you can't buy MORE of them!

If you want something more suited to flanking and pursuing, try the Extraordinarii, or one of the many MRR allies. There's a thread a little lower in this forum where I asked about MRR allies and got a lot of great feedback from the people here. It's worth a read!

[EDIT] - thread is here: viewtopic.php?t=14385

broeders wrote:You have to have them - but not necessarily behind the hastati / principes.

I think combining 2 BG's of 2 into one unit of 4 (elite, heavy foot, offensice spearmen, armoured, drilled..) makes them a great unit to anchor your middle.

Put them up against Carthagnian elephants or other offensive spearmen (like the African spearmen) where all those POA's can make a huge difference.

Good point of view. This was an element of Scipio's tactic.

Steve63 wrote:... it would seem best just to abandon them, as 16 points a base seems a bit much to pay ....

You can't abandon them, as you have to have them in a fixed ratio.

Steve63 wrote: the Hastati and Principes are together in a battle group with the Triari behind in support. Yes?

That's the idea but you are free to deploy them and fight with them as you like.

I played against a MRR with my early persians. We routed 2 battlegroups of 4 bases of hastati/principes. This left their supporting 2 base BG of Triarii very isolated facing massed immortals. So the Triarii charged, disrupted the Immortals on impact and broke them in the melee. That's when they get to fight!

I've been running my MRRs as average 4pak Hastati & Principes with superior 2pak Triarii behind when fighting Seleucids. It has worked out very well. Skilled swords get no POAs against anything in that army!! Plus, a 4pak of average armoured swords comes in at 40pts...8pts under the 8pak pikes it can fight...so for once, Romans have points to put somewhere else!

The +1 for rear support has made the difference quite a few times! And at 26pts, that's awfully cheap rear support that also packs a punch if a hole does open up!

They can be also nimble if they are kept a bit behind the lines (out of 6MU) and a commander handy.

Thanks for all the input guys, some good points raised and definitely some food for thought.
Cheers
Steve

Blathergut wrote:I've been running my MRRs as average 4pak Hastati & Principes with superior 2pak Triarii behind when fighting Seleucids. It has worked out very well. Skilled swords get no POAs against anything in that army!! Plus, a 4pak of average armoured swords comes in at 40pts...8pts under the 8pak pikes it can fight...so for once, Romans have points to put somewhere else!

The +1 for rear support has made the difference quite a few times! And at 26pts, that's awfully cheap rear support that also packs a punch if a hole does open up!

They can be also nimble if they are kept a bit behind the lines (out of 6MU) and a commander handy.

This is indeed true, but what if are you facing an army which outnumber your Romans? In a such case, the use of Triarii in BG of 4s for me is recommended to widen your front.

I think the Early Republican Roman army post 340 BC is a much better option. They offer much better supports than the Mid Republicans do, with the option of armoured MF from the Lucanains.

And that is very sad in some way.

To be honest, I'm very disappointed of the Camillan Roman list.
I understand why they made Hastati and Principes one choice in the MRR (because they fought the same way and had the same equipment) but why the same in the Camillan list, where Principes where armed like the Triarii? I really expected them to be Offensive Spear.
And Rorarii could have been given the sling, to add some variety to the list. It seems these Romans now just distinguish themselves in their allies.

Mehrunes wrote: I understand why they made Hastati and Principes one choice in the MRR (because they fought the same way and had the same equipment) but why the same in the Camillan list, where Principes where armed like the Triarii? I really expected them to be Offensive Spear.

Presumably you would have had separate BGs of Principes and Hastati then?

Scrumpy wrote:I think the Early Republican Roman army post 340 BC is a much better option. They offer much better supports than the Mid Republicans do, with the option of armoured MF from the Lucanains.

Haven't seen this yet. Still waiting for the book to be shipped.