Slitherine

I'm wondering if Communal Italian & Byzantine mixed spear & bow units are the worst value units in any book so far?

Front rank defensive spear, rear rank bow - so if fighting with only 1 rank of spear they will get no POAs at impact or in melee, and will even fail to deny their opponents a POA because they are only "1 rank" of spear, not 2 (if you misread the rules on this point, but anyway, they don't get an actual POA themselves do they?). The only upside is that if the front rank lose a base in combat, the rear rank no-melee-weapon bowmen who step forwards into the fray to replace them are at exactly the same "zero POA" factor !!

They then need to be deployed in an 8, in 4 ranks, to be able to fight as "proper" defensive spears - and so you are effectively buying 2 MF bowmen per file who can't shoot or fight - just to get average protected defensive spearmen.

Anything worse than this?

madaxeman wrote: Front rank defensive spear, rear rank bow - so if fighting with only 1 rank of spear they will get no POAs at impact or in melee, and will even fail to deny their opponents a POA because they are only "1 rank" of spear, not 2.

Really - and there are the rules saying things like "against any except ... STEADY pikemen/spearmen" and not mentioning depth of said pikemen/spearmen ...

nikgaukroger wrote:

madaxeman wrote: Front rank defensive spear, rear rank bow - so if fighting with only 1 rank of spear they will get no POAs at impact or in melee, and will even fail to deny their opponents a POA because they are only "1 rank" of spear, not 2.

Really - and there are the rules saying things like "against any except ... STEADY pikemen/spearmen" and not mentioning depth of said pikemen/spearmen ...

Aye, Tim, at least read the rules before launching into (yet) another "X is totally useless" diatribe.

And there was I thinking: "Poor Tim, a bad case of hippotoxitophobia. Shall we administer Electroconvulsive Therapy? No, what he needs is BGs with front rank DSp, back rank archers."

Haha, excellent answer, Richard!

Phil Powell and I took two BGs of 8 of these to Usk last year and IIRC they did a good job in all the games and I can't think of a game where either of them broke.

As has been pointed out the DSpear does negate lance and sword and a heavy foot front rank negates the MF bonus for mounted. They are much better against lancers than all bow BGs and are almost as good as propper spear at impact.

Two ranks of spear get 2 dice at + vs 2 at -
The mixed formation gets 2 dice at evens and 1 dice normally at - for shooting vs 2 dice at evens.

What they are poo against is decent foot.

The Byzantines can als do the clever trick of doubling up the spear and having the bow as a 3rd or 4th rank or even having the bow next to the spear which can in some situations be handy.

rbodleyscott wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote:

madaxeman wrote: Front rank defensive spear, rear rank bow - so if fighting with only 1 rank of spear they will get no POAs at impact or in melee, and will even fail to deny their opponents a POA because they are only "1 rank" of spear, not 2.

Really - and there are the rules saying things like "against any except ... STEADY pikemen/spearmen" and not mentioning depth of said pikemen/spearmen ...

Aye, Tim, at least read the rules before launching into (yet) another "X is totally useless" diatribe.

And there was I thinking: "Poor Tim, a bad case of hippotoxitophobia. Shall we administer Electroconvulsive Therapy? No, what he needs is BGs with front rank DSp, back rank archers."

Oh, I thought I'd covered that in the original post ?

madaxeman wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote: Really - and there are the rules saying things like "against any except ... STEADY pikemen/spearmen" and not mentioning depth of said pikemen/spearmen ...

Aye, Tim, at least read the rules before launching into (yet) another "X is totally useless" diatribe.

And there was I thinking: "Poor Tim, a bad case of hippotoxitophobia. Shall we administer Electroconvulsive Therapy? No, what he needs is BGs with front rank DSp, back rank archers."

Oh, I thought I'd covered that in the original post ?

Really? Why would you form them 4 ranks deep against horse archers?

You should pay more attention to Hannibal. He knows how to play.

Hmm, split personality, maybe we should go back to the electroconvulsive therapy idea after all.

They broke a unit of Longbow in the last game I used them. They did get crushed by some Nellies in the game before that though. BG of 8 are good because they can go 4 deep AND get 3rd rank bow shot at impact. Not quite as good as the Varangians though. They can fight three BG at the same time and win.

But I refuse to vote in this obviously biased poll.

rbodleyscott wrote:Really? Why would you form them 4 ranks deep against horse archers?

The horse archers shoot them up badly. Worth making them 3 ranks deep. Spear, Bow, Spear&bow.

philqw78 wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:Really? Why would you form them 4 ranks deep against horse archers?

The horse archers shoot them up badly.

Potentially - it depends what they have either side of them to deter enemy concentration, whether they have rear support and whether they have an IC.

Did you have big problems with your Urartian foot being shot up by horse archers?

Good grief. Don't start Tim on about Horse Archers....

I think it is all a big ploy - he must actually like playing against them really. As per his game against me in the third round of Roll Call.

All that whining is really just a smoke screen.

rbodleyscott wrote:Potentially - it depends what they have either side of them to deter enemy concentration, whether they have rear support and whether they have an IC.

Did you have big problems with your Urartian foot being shot up by horse archers?

Not as many in the Warfare Comp as I see in Manchester. Since Dave plays there I have to learn how to deal with them instead of just crying about it .

philqw78 wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:Potentially - it depends what they have either side of them to deter enemy concentration, whether they have rear support and whether they have an IC.

Did you have big problems with your Urartian foot being shot up by horse archers?

Not as many in the Warfare Comp as I see in Manchester. Since Dave plays there I have to learn how to deal with them instead of just crying about it .

So what you are saying is that lances, beer and horse archers sort out the men from the (lady)boys?

philqw78 wrote:Not as many in the Warfare Comp as I see in Manchester. Since Dave plays there I have to learn how to deal with them instead of just crying about it .

Mainly mine at Warfare I suspect.

rbodleyscott wrote: So what you are saying is that lances, beer and horse archers sort out the men from the (lady)boys?

No, with the lances you can recognise the Horse Archer ladyboys. After the beer you don't care.

did that come out right?

philqw78 wrote:No, with the lances you can recognise the Horse Archer ladyboys. After the beer you don't care.

That must make MAWS after-game drinking sessions interesting.

madaxeman wrote:Anything worse than this?

Yes. The Later Persians have the opportunity to bring "Apple Bearers" or "Apple Shields" or something like that (I don't have the book in front of me here at work). They are single ranked Off. Sp., backed by bow. Every disadvantage of the single ranked Def Sp, but willing to impulsively charge to their doom as well.



Marc

Unprotected, Undrilled, Swordsmen which the Indians have in abundance, are pretty bad. They are 6AP (IIRC) each for something that can't fight all that much.

The Byzantine spear/bow combo is only 1 AP more per base.

The Indian troops are excellent at providing rear support. That alone makes them worth the points. The fact they come in fours is a massive bonus.

Which list has them in 4's? The classic Indian and Indo-Skythian/ Kushan list has them in 6-8's