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Heavy Weapon
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:51 pm
by MNFS
I'm trying to understand why heavy weapons do not get a POA against mounted in Impact?
Surely Halberdiers and Billmen are as effective as light spears against mounted?
Even Huscarls were usually armed with a mixture of axes and spears, so you would expect they should also receive some sort of benefit when fighting mounted in the impact phase as well.
Best,
Mark
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:25 pm
by timmy1
Boy, this takes me back. Circa 1973 I heard a radio report on the Model Engineer Exhibition, about the wargames that were then part of it. The reported described a discussion he had heard about which would win between a Saxon Huscarl and a Byzantine Cataphract. That was the first time that I had ever heard of wargames in the media (I was too young to watch Callan).
Here we are more than a quarter of a century later and there are still discussions about Huscarls fighting mounted.
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:49 pm
by MNFS
So do they not get the POA because it conflicts with Edward Woodward’s understanding of the relationship between Cataphracts fighting Huscarls?
Interesting...
Re: Heavy Weapon
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:47 pm
by peterrjohnston
MNFS wrote:
Surely Halberdiers and Billmen are as effective as light spears against mounted?
Presumably because light spears are a thrown impact weapon, then draw swords, whereas
throwing your halberd at mounted is not likely to be nearly so effective...
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:19 pm
by timmy1
Mark
That about sums up the evidence I believe.
This is quite a highbrow conversation for this forum but you get the drift. :)
Re: Heavy Weapon
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:12 pm
by ethan
peterrjohnston wrote:MNFS wrote:
Surely Halberdiers and Billmen are as effective as light spears against mounted?
Presumably because light spears are a thrown impact weapon, then draw swords, whereas
throwing your halberd at mounted is not likely to be nearly so effective...
I am not sure everyone classed as lt spear actually threw them. It seems like some are troops that didn't form a solid enough "shield wall" to merit being spearmen of some sort.
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:38 pm
by peterrjohnston
By deduction, I was thinking of the light spear swordsmen types.
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:32 pm
by MNFS
I'm not convinced!
If Light Spear get the POA in impact because it is thrown, then why not Bow or Longbow?
What are people's experiences in playing HW aganist Mounted, particulalrly lancers?
Does it seem to work out as it did historically?
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:41 pm
by expendablecinc
MNFS wrote:I'm not convinced!
If Light Spear get the POA in impact because it is thrown, then why not Bow or Longbow?
What are people's experiences in playing HW aganist Mounted, particulalrly lancers?
Does it seem to work out as it did historically?
It they survive the impact they go toe to toe with late knight quite well. Seems ok to me.
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:26 pm
by babyshark
MNFS wrote:I'm not convinced!
If Light Spear get the POA in impact because it is thrown, then why not Bow or Longbow?
The longbow get a + POA if they throw their bows.
But then they can't shoot for the rest of the game.
More seriously, MF bow and longbow get an impact phase benefit from the second rank shooting in impact. If HW foot withstand the impact phase they do all right. It feels like a good interaction to me.
Marc
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:27 pm
by pyrrhus
Ok then lets look at all the poa's then for HW why would HW get a + POA in impact against spears or pikes surely your weapon is so much shorter than a 14 foot spear or a 18/21 foot pike that the HW boys would have a week impact attack only in melee would their weapons come into their own . perhaps the rules writers thought that mounted would have a better impact attack than someone with a HW and I for one would not disagree. If the HW was so great against mounted why would anyone use a spear or pike ? just a question
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:14 pm
by MNFS
More seriously, MF bow and longbow get an impact phase benefit from the second rank shooting in impact. If HW foot withstand the impact phase they do all right. It feels like a good interaction to me.
OK That makes sense
Ok then lets look at all the poa's then for HW why would HW get a + POA in impact against spears or pikes surely your weapon is so much shorter than a 14 foot spear or a 18/21 foot pike that the HW boys would have a week impact attack only in melee would their weapons come into their own . perhaps the rules writers thought that mounted would have a better impact attack than someone with a HW and I for one would not disagree. If the HW was so great against mounted why would anyone use a spear or pike ? just a question Smile
There are numerous accounts of Bills & Halberds being pretty effective against Pike, but not enough to match them in impact, which is probably why they are 1 POA down in impact.
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:35 pm
by philqw78
pyrrhus wrote: If the HW was so great against mounted why would anyone use a spear or pike ? just a question
But HW is rubbish against mounted at impact. Light spear is better. AndSpear better than that and Pike better still.
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:57 pm
by MNFS
Hi Phil,
I suppose it opens the question again whther HW should be that bad or at least equal to Light Spear?
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:28 pm
by hammy
Well if heavy weapon got a POA against mounted then there would not be any infantry other than archers or light spear medium foot who mounted lancers get any advantage against at impact.
HW do at least get to be on an even POA in melee with any mounted even if the HW are disrupted.
If you combine the overall 'package' against late medieval knights HW are - at impact and even in melee. Light spear are even at impact and - in melee> I know which I would rather have and it isn't the light spear.
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:43 pm
by ethan
hammy wrote:Well if heavy weapon got a POA against mounted then there would not be any infantry other than archers or light spear medium foot who mounted lancers get any advantage against at impact.
You could make an arguement that this isn't actually ahistorical. I realize this isn't the choice that was made and that is fine, but I don't think it is necessary that Lancers have something to ride down frontally...
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:17 pm
by hammy
ethan wrote:hammy wrote:Well if heavy weapon got a POA against mounted then there would not be any infantry other than archers or light spear medium foot who mounted lancers get any advantage against at impact.
You could make an arguement that this isn't actually ahistorical. I realize this isn't the choice that was made and that is fine, but I don't think it is necessary that Lancers have something to ride down frontally...
A single POA at impact is anything but a certainty to ride someone down.
Superior knights charging average billmen with no commanders or rear support on a 2 base frontage have just fractionally over a 50% chance of disrupting or fragementing the billmen at impact.
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:06 pm
by ethan
But what chance do the knights have of winding up disrupted compared to the billmen? If it goes to melee the basically same combat repeats itself. IIRC the knights will always win a bit more than 50%, the billmen about 25% and a draw about 25% (and every draw just means the Kn get another 50% chance at winning).
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:15 pm
by philqw78
ethan wrote:But what chance do the knights have of winding up disrupted compared to the billmen? If it goes to melee the basically same combat repeats itself. IIRC the knights will always win a bit more than 50%, the billmen about 25% and a draw about 25% (and every draw just means the Kn get another 50% chance at winning).
And the billmen cost less so at least that works
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:36 pm
by hammy
ethan wrote:But what chance do the knights have of winding up disrupted compared to the billmen? If it goes to melee the basically same combat repeats itself. IIRC the knights will always win a bit more than 50%, the billmen about 25% and a draw about 25% (and every draw just means the Kn get another 50% chance at winning).
Well the melee is at evens in POA terms so it is nothing like the same.
If you make the billmen superior, give them a commander, rear support and double the numbers of the knights the whole thing is totally different.
In a certain game most of us used to play knights (Kn) against most billmen (Bd(O)) was a very one sided affair until the very last itteration of the rules.