Slitherine

So I am wondering which army to start with now that I am fairly sold on 15mm and know where to find them. But the problem remains of which of my two favs to start with. At some point I would like to have a Pyrrhic, Alexandrian Macedonian, Late/Early Carthaginian list (part model pile for The Punic and Sicilian wars) Mid-Republican and Late Republican list. That way I have all 5 of the highest regarded generals of their time. After that I would happily tuck into some Celts/Britons and some Ancient Germans maybe even some Huns (they seem highly cost effective). I want to have a couple of armies so that my none army owning fellow game nut friends can get the bug too. I fully intend to play this game for many years to come, and I mean what I say in that I have been playing D&D for 20 years and 40k for more than 15 (or however old Rogue Trader is).

But the first two that I want to do are a list representing Hannibal in Italy, and one for Julius Caesar during the Civil Wars, (or maybe the Optimates, depending on mood) may even attempt (and fail in) modelling and painting them as the 10th. Into these lists alot of my list building efforts go, and that is something I do alot of in both FoG and 40k. Sounds lame but my gaming group moved away, so it goes, so it goes. As such I figured I would come here and post the two of them before I started dropping money.

So don't feel any need to pull your punches I got very, very thick skin and a good sense of humour, so let me have it.
First up Carthage, then maybe a snack and I will post the Roman list.

So the Carthage list is about 2 weeks old and thats pretty out of character for me, as I tend to rewrite and edit my lists often. As such I figured that was a clear sign of advanced hubris, coupled with near complete ignorance, and that I should seek immediate FoG attention on this forum.

Not entirely sure how to set this up so I will be defaulting to my previous 40k style. Hopefully dodging any legal issues, but if I don't or it just looks awkward let me know and I will reshuffle the deck.

Inspired CinC, 2 Field Com, fortified camp.
-might be overkill, but there is a lot of bases and highly mobile units.

3 battlegroups of 6 bases of African Vetern Spearmen
-(in snazzy 2nd hand, stolen Roman gear !!!)

One Battlegroup of 4 bases of Gallic/Spanish Cavalry
-(depending on model debate, both are so awesome)

3 Battlegroups of 4 bases of Numidian Light Horse.

2 Battlegroups of 6 bases of Numidian Javelinmen.

2 Battlegroups of 6 bases of Spanish Scutarii
-the drilled kind of course.

One Battlegroup of 6 bases of Balearic Slingers.

One Battlegroup of 4 bases of Libyphoenician cavalry.

Grand total = 792 pts

Leaving me with 8pts left over, which I suppose I could add as 2 more bases to a group of Javelinmen, but I worry what that might cost the unit in mobility.

All told this gives me:

3 Good commanders
3 tough six packs of quality heavy foot. 18 bases in total
2 units of superior armoured cavalry, one of which is drilled. 8 bases.
3 units of mobile and seemingly mutlti-applicable light horse. 12 bases.
2 large units of Javelinmen skirmishers. 12 bases.
2 large units of drilled, quality, impact medium foot. 12 bases/
and a maxed out unit of superior slingers. 6 bases.

Unless I am crazy that should give me a +3 on initiative won't it? Know how long it took my Mage to get that? Years....

I think it is a balanced enough force to take on anything, (in my seemingly boundless naivety), and as I have maxed out my long range potential I don't think I will get embarrassingly outshot. Should be a good mobile force that can dictate and react well, and won't embarrass themselves in a standing fight.

Now just to figure out if I go with Corvus Belli or OldGlory15s.

What do you think?
Jack

Ok so Caesar at Munda list. This one has been the subject of so many different editions that I am likely getting lost. But the idea of what these few men accomplished and the consistancy with which they did it is one of the strongest pulls for me in ancient wargaming. It also has a lower figure count than the Carthage list, which means it may just cost less, and I am wearing a tight belt right now so that in itself is a strong vote.

Enough of my ramblings, time for more of my rantings.

Again I go with an inspired CinC and 2 FCs and a fortified camp, likely because I am deluded.

3 Battlegroups of Elite Veteran Legionaries, 6 bases each.
- The 10th of course, love the idea of these units.

2 Battlegroups of 4 bases of heavy Cavalry.
- Armoured, Superior types.

2 Battlegroups of 6 bases of Archers.
- Seem like best missile troops, but I have hit my head a bit. These things may even be related.

2 Battlegroups of 4 bases of light horse.
- Light horse just seems so handy.
- Cheap in points and modelling up bases too.

1 Battlegroup of Spanish Scutarii with 6 bases.
- Sadly undrilled.
- Adds mobilty and will attempt flank charges,
- or rushing through scenery while still being able to fight.

If my math is right that should leave me at a total of 796 pts.

My only real concerns are:

In bulking up on so many Elite Legionaries am I scarificing the simple fact that I need more feet on the ground? Are the Archers too much? Should I make them smaller or swap them out for Javelinmen that can (almost) fight in close combat? Is 2 Field Commanders too much as well? I mean this Army is pretty small, I don't need that much coverage.

If I did change anything I would likely downsize a couple of things and get maybe a Battlegroup or so of regular strength superior Legionaries, possibly at the cost of the Scutarii.

Again I have a tough set of scales so let that muck fling.

Thanks again.
Jack

Hey Jack, I am a novice as well but I think my horse archers would love to see that half of your army - and the bulkiest half at that - is extremely vulnerable to them, and the other half is incapable of catching or harming them.

I think your supports are too many to protect, and not enought to win with against many armies. Your Roman infantry however, are best in class. More of them would frustrate my bowfire and be sufficient to protect your supports when they needed it.

I would suggest cutting your cavalry in half, downgrading some of the elite legionaires, downgrading some or all of the generals, and using the points saved to get more real Romans.

Mind you, I was the world's worst wargames Roman general back in the day, but that is because I kept trying to run them as a cavalry army. Your list looks familiar from those days. Too much cav, not enough solid, stolid Roman foot, IMHO.

The Munda list I came up with (based on Caesar's account) was

IC, 2 x TC (Antony & Arguetius)
2 x 4 Elite Legionaries (X & V)
6 x 4 Superior Legionaries
2 x 4 Superior Protected Cavalry
1 x 4 Numidians
1 x 6 Slingers
2 x Field Fortifications (no other way to spend 4 points)
Fortified Camp

This is around 1 base to 1000 men

I wouldn't bother with an FC unless you intend to flank march and I might try to squeeze in a 4th General as once things get started I find 3 commanders are not enough (and I rarely put them in the front line, just use them to support the battle line and bolster - the way Romans generals are supposed to act)

I would have to say that it depends on what you are fighting against. My opponent uses Romans, I have taken him on with Selucids (mainly) and recently Bactrians ( the Selucids are morphing into this one) and they will give a Roman army a run for their money. Now my opponent also has a Spanish army (the one he lent me when we started playing FOG) and they pretty much get slaughtered by superior skilled swords, with a few victories when using the Sertorius version of the list and making them drilled so they can actually move.
Bows can be good against protected and really good against mass unprotected troops, armoured are harder to hit. Don't go too heavy with lights especially the foot. One of my Selucid armies had 2 BG's of light foot with bows, 1 BG of slings and a unit of Cretans... waaaay to many lights. they are good for running away and not much else so when the heavy stuff shows up too many of them can't do anything except await for the inevitable flight from the battlefield. Cav heavy forces have proven to be good especiallay the cataphracts, Romans don't fare too well against them. You might want to get more legionaries into your Roman army, perhaps lose the bows or cut back on the cav, although armoured superior is tough for a lot of foes to deal with. Spears are good but will get beat fairly easily by skilled swords so the Carthaginians will need to out think those dastardly Romans.

deadtorius wrote:ISpears are good but will get beat fairly easily by skilled swords so the Carthaginians will need to out think those dastardly Romans.

Skilled swordsmen is no better than swordsmen against spears. The Carthaginian spearmen are Armoured Superior Off. Spearmen. These will be tough for Roman legionaries to take on. With even numbers I'd favour the spearmen in this match-up.

Jack, have you played yet ? Although you'll get plenty of good advice on here, the best way to learn what troops you like in an army are to play the game and learn the lessons yourself.
Even if someone gives some (IMO good) advice such as downgrading the legionaries (Elite is overkill), downgrade the generals (TCs are fine in a Roman army) you won't really appreciate the points that are made until you play with the army. And what one player finds works for him in an army, another player may not, depending on playing style.
Obviously you'd like some idea of what troops you want so you can only buy and paint figures that are going to be useful, but lots of the "extras" like LF archers & slingers, Spanish infantry, Numidian cavalry, are going to be useful in a few armies anyway, so if you buy them and find they don't "work" in one army, you will find a useful place for them in another.
Why not aim to build the starter armies first for Rome and Carthage so you can get playing, then add more troops when you have the time and money ?
If you want to start playing straight away, why not make cardboard representations of the troops and play with these. You can actually print off armies like this from the internet, stick them to the correct sized bases, and start playing.

Polkovnik wrote:Jack, have you played yet ? Although you'll get plenty of good advice on here, the best way to learn what troops you like in an army are to play the game and learn the lessons yourself.
Even if someone gives some (IMO good) advice such as downgrading the legionaries (Elite is overkill), downgrade the generals (TCs are fine in a Roman army) you won't really appreciate the points that are made until you play with the army. And what one player finds works for him in an army, another player may not, depending on playing style.
Obviously you'd like some idea of what troops you want so you can only buy and paint figures that are going to be useful, but lots of the "extras" like LF archers & slingers, Spanish infantry, Numidian cavalry, are going to be useful in a few armies anyway, so if you buy them and find they don't "work" in one army, you will find a useful place for them in another.
Why not aim to build the starter armies first for Rome and Carthage so you can get playing, then add more troops when you have the time and money ?
If you want to start playing straight away, why not make cardboard representations of the troops and play with these. You can actually print off armies like this from the internet, stick them to the correct sized bases, and start playing.

Very good advice. I completely agree. In general I start buying the miniatures I like to have in my shelves and then I add the soldiers I need in my tabletop. Playing is the only way to realize.

Polkovnik wrote:Even if someone gives some (IMO good) advice such as downgrading the legionaries (Elite is overkill), downgrade the generals (TCs are fine in a Roman army) you won't really appreciate the points that are made until you play with the army. And what one player finds works for him in an army, another player may not, depending on playing style.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Find your style of play first. And you can only do that by using different armies and troop/general combinations. I like 2 FC's for superior/elite Romans. They don't need generals that often and with 2 FC your command radius is bigger than 3, even 4 TC.

Good Advice abounds, thanks a lot for the comments.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I had curry to make and Hockey to watch.

Not sure where to start, so pardon my often random thought process.

I have indeed played, twice, a year ago, (Insert teary eyed emoticon here), my buddy and I used slips of paper.
We both immediately took to the game, but shortly thereafter he took off to Japan to chase the woman of his dreams. This coupled with the fact that the rest of my gaming groups moved to either San Diego or Australia, has led me to look for someone to game with outside my social loop. I am all for the starter army idea but it seemed that tournaments were run at 800 pts, so I assumed that was the going number for playing socially.

Ok on the the meat and potatoes.

There seems to be a reoccuring theme of saving points and respending them on more Legionaries. I like this reasoning sadly however with this list the Elite upgraded Troops are already maxed out, also I need to field 6 bases of Javelin/Sling/Archers/Velite, and 4 bases of Heavy Cav. So to cut points I think the Scutarii will go, and the Heavy Cav, Archers and Light Horse are also near the chopping block. Just wondering of important shooting is, and how effective Light Horse are? Does light horse make any dent in close combat at all? I assume my armour will help me absorb some of the shooting, but I guess time will tell me soon enough.

One thing that missed mention in my previous posts is I was a long time adherent to Stillmania, people here that were throwing dice at each other over 40k tables in the 90s might remember an English chap named Nigel Stillman. He put forth an idea in an ancient issue of White Dwarf that a good general picks his army with a high amount of "Fluff", and playablility verses any foe. You may not win every game, but you won't be embarrassed, but you are as motivated by the hobby itself as you are by winning.

Now I am not deluded enough to assume I can just smear my crazy lists all over this forum and expect to start winning tournaments, but I did need some general idea of what to buy to be ready for my first game. After that I will likely be doing what Polkovnik suggests, and getting a shelf full of armies and battlegroups that can do multiple things.

Not as much input on the Carthage list as the Roman eh?
Is that the sign of a step in the right direction or a complete write off?
Which of these armies do you think would be easier, and maybe more forgiving of my stumbling through my first steps?

Again thanks for the advice, and I will likely be getting back to this forum later tonight.

Cheers Jack

Ok so I made a rethink list, model count goes up a bit, lots to paint.

An Inspired CinC, two Troop Commanders and a Fortified Camp.

3 Battlegroups of Elite Legion
- 6 bases each.

2 Battlegroups of Superior Legion
- 6 bases each.

One Battlegroup of Heavy Cavalry.
- 4 bases.

2 Battlegroups of Archers
- 6 bases each.

One Battlegroup of Light Horse
- 4 bases.

I know the archers haven't changed but I think they are the best for the points of the 12 bases of missle troops I must take. I hope one small group of Heavy Cav is enough to do it, and they and the Light Horse are able to react quickly if needed. I played a Mage in D&D for years so I am rather curious about "tanking" with the Legions. Another good thing about this army is I can start buying and painting it in chunks and still have enough to play. I just have to be sure to get enough Legionaries, Heavy Cavalry, Archers, a CinC and a Fortified Camp to be legal.

Still haven't been tempted to edit the Hannibal list, and there haven't been a lot of comments on it, any thoughts?

Cheers Jack

JackfromVancouver wrote:I am all for the starter army idea but it seemed that tournaments were run at 800 pts, so I assumed that was the going number for playing socially.

I think a lot of people probably play social games at less than 800 pts. Unitil you are very experienced it is difficult to complete an 800 point game in an evening. Now I'm sure people on here will disagree, but then they will be experienced players.

We play our games at 700 points. Even then we don't always complete our games in an evening.

I would definitely start of with starter armies(or similar sized armies) for your first few games.

JackfromVancouver wrote:Ok so I made a rethink list, model count goes up a bit, lots to paint.

...........

I know the archers haven't changed but I think they are the best for the points of the 12 bases of missle troops I must take.

You only need six bases of LF missile troops, not 12. But the list does look better overall. However, you have no MF to take and hold terrain, and as your fighting troops only have a 17 base frontage which is about a third of a 6' table, you are going to have a problem with your flanks. Any decent opponents will ignore your elite legions and attack your flanks. Superior legionaries are very good troops - the upgrade to elite is not necessary.

JackfromVancouver wrote: Just wondering of important shooting is,

Can be very important for some armies. Not so much for Romans though.

JackfromVancouver wrote: how effective Light Horse are?

Effective in numbers, 1 BG on its own can easily get overwhelmed by enemy LH.

JackfromVancouver wrote:Does light horse make any dent in close combat at all?

No. Normally suicidal to put them into close combat.

JackfromVancouver wrote:I assume my armour will help me absorb some of the shooting

Yes, Roman legionaries will be virtually immune to shooting (assume you're playing in period and not facing longbow). A BG on the end of a line may be in danger, as in can face a lot of shooting, but BGs of armoured foot in the middle of a line of troops have nohing to worry about.

LH in melee are only good against LF in melee, the LH get full dice the LF get 1 die per 2 versus LH. Other than that they come in handy as an overlap where they can't be hit back, or as a flank charge especially if it is against a disrupted or fragged unit, where they will likely only get 1 or 2 dice against them then and they will only get 2 dice if still at full strength.
Will look at your Carthage list again and see what it looks like, just had a lot more games against Romans and never against the Carthaginians except in FOG online where they don't generally do too well.

Thoughts on Carthage list....
Too many LH. I would drop to 2 units which gives you 8 total.
You might want to consider the Peoni foot, the spears will count in impact and then the sword might come into play in melee, unless fighting Romans with skilled swords then you don't count the swords.
For the cav go armoured superior if you can affoard the points with your Gallic or Spanish cav. Being undrilled makes them somewhat harder to manouver but the superior armoured is good in melee and they can re-roll for complex manouvers.
Might want to take your Spanish foot as MF as it can go into crappy terrain and be unaffected by it, if the Romans come in after you they will lose dice but keep the POA's so you might get a slight bonus there.
Not sure I would bother with the camp, save 24 points if you can to spend elsewhere, combined with your leftover points and the points from the dropped LH could get you another unit of foot, perhaps offensive spears.
Offensive spears can only be protected in the later army list which is the one I assume you were using, spears will put you down a poa in impact versus romans but you will even out with them in melee, where as the Spanish will be at a -- versus Romans most of the time so might be a better choice for your main infantry type. Try to limit your lights as they will be useless once the main lines hit and too many units of them means less main battle line troops and they can't do much other than stand around and pray for victory so they won't have to face the surviving enemy heavies.

deadtorius wrote:Thoughts on Carthage list....
You might want to consider the Peoni foot.

As the great John Otway once sang: Beware of the flowers 'cos I'm sure they're going to get you, yeah.

Is the fortified camp not mandatory in that list? I thought it was, but been a while since I looked so could be wrong.

Another way of tackling how to build up your first army is to concentrate on acquiring and painting the most expensive troops first, so that whatever the points total being played with you will be ready to actually put out a solid army ASAP. Then add variety and fluff at your own pace.

This strategy worked well for me 25 years ago. Except, of course, that I haven't yet finished adding the variety and fluff!

Is the fortified camp not mandatory in that list? I thought it was

Not in the later Carthaginian list, so why not save 24 points and put the camp behind your army where your boys can use their bodies to shield the camp from pesky lights that will try to sneak by and grab it?

The Gallic foot are also worth a look in numbers and elephants, brittle but effective when they do go in.