Slitherine

I'm painting away as I (im)patentiently wait for the local game shop to stock "Blood and Gold". I want a teaser! Does anyone have an army they created using the new Aztec list to post yet?

TR

I'm currently looking at:

IC, 2xTC
6 LF Bow average
6 LF Sling Average
6x6 MF IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Average
2x8 MF IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Superior
2x6 IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Elite

I came up with this, based more on what I have painted than any great tactical plan:

4 x TC
2 x 6 MF Dr Prot Elite, Jav, IF, Sw
5 x 6 MF Dr Prot Sup, Jav, IF, Sw
2 x 8 MF Dr Prot Ave, Jav, IF, Sw
1 x 8 LF, Ave Sling
1 x 6 LF, Ave Sling
1 x 6 LF, Ave Bow

I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Cheers,

Kevin

Well that is a historical way of building an army Kevin.

Historically, it's how I've always built them.

grahambriggs wrote:I'm currently looking at:

IC, 2xTC
6 LF Bow average
6 LF Sling Average
6x6 MF IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Average
2x8 MF IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Superior
2x6 IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Elite

I don't have the book yet, but I'm curious - is that javelin for the MF actually for shooting, or is it really just light spear?

Peter C

is that javelin for the MF actually for shooting

Yes, it's for shooting.

I know some guys who are dusting off and rebasing old Aztec armies.

Thanks guys. That's what I was looking for.

TR

pcelella wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:I'm currently looking at:

IC, 2xTC
6 LF Bow average
6 LF Sling Average
6x6 MF IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Average
2x8 MF IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Superior
2x6 IF, Sw, Javs, Drilled Protected Elite

I don't have the book yet, but I'm curious - is that javelin for the MF actually for shooting, or is it really just light spear?

Peter C

It's for shooting, representing massed use of atlatl dart throwers. With MF you get one die per two bases and a range of just 2MU. So it's not hugely powerful but it is free. We found when testing that it had little effect on solid lines of enemy foot but was reasonable against skirmishers or small BGs.

Spanish accounts made significant play of the missile showers that the Aztecs used.

Regards

Graham

5 x 6 MF Dr Prot Sup, Jav, IF, Sw

I must say I'm suprised (pleasantly mind you) at the number of superior stands you can field here. I'm asuming these are the Jaguar/Eagle/Chicken/whatever suit wearers, right?
Is there a distinct priest unit or are they gone like the Viking Beserkir?

TR

Trench_Raider wrote:

5 x 6 MF Dr Prot Sup, Jav, IF, Sw

I must say I'm suprised (pleasantly mind you) at the number of superior stands you can field here. I'm asuming these are the Jaguar/Eagle/Chicken/whatever suit wearers, right?
Is there a distinct priest unit or are they gone like the Viking Beserkir?

TR

They are the Otontins and the various military societies. One of the issues with the Aztecs is that enough captives/brave deeds gave you entry into the societies. So if the army did well, it got more people entering the societies, that might in turn make it do better. Also, long distance campaigns were limited by logistics. So a campaign far away from the capital would tend to be a good quality Aztec army, plus central american ally states.

We could find no evidence that priests formed a distinct unit. Though of course that doesn't stop people using funky priest figures to make up a unit if they feel different.

Graham

Yes, the Superiors are the military societies.

There's no separate warrior priest unit.

As I drool over the army book, I cannot help but create the following list:

1 BG of Cuacheq (Elites)
2 BGs of Suit Wearers (Superior)
2 BGs of Atlatl Light Foot
2 BGs of slingers
1 BG of light foot archers
7 BGs of your average warriors
(I forget, but there might be an additional BG of Undrilled, average warriors too)

I'm impressed with the nearly 50 inch battle-line! That does not include all the light foot which would be moving ahead of the impact foot.


I wonder if the pre-classic or classic Mayans might be better as they have access to over 100 stands of superior, undrilled, MF, protected, light spear, swordsmen, javelin throwers. Not only that, but they can field more MF archer swordsmen to slow down enemy cavalry. Besides, I have multiple sculptures of Chichen Itza that would fit as a camp for a post-classic Mayan empire. Perhaps I'm wrong... That extra point for Impact Foot for the Aztecs and post classic Mayans makes for a MUCH smaller army. I would really be interested in hearing first hand experiences and wisdom for these army lists. Gauls and other Roman-enemies have similar problems. CAN they be competitive? Without ARMOURED and few options for offensive spear, they will sometimes be hurting for POAs. Also, without any options for cavalry, they could be hurting with maneuverability. So, perhaps these armies need to win by swarming the enemy with tons of stands and leave little to no flanks available for the enemy to flank?

Oh, and to the question about the javelins. Most Meso-American tribes would throw atlatl darts, spears and sling stones before closing in and trying to chop up the enemy with their obsidian "swords".

Of course, if you are playing strictly in theme you will never meet anyone wearing metal shirts, more proficient swordsmen or riding one of those strange four legged things. (Unless someone figures out that the Incas fielded Llama mounted Lancers of course).

eldiablito wrote: I would really be interested in hearing first hand experiences and wisdom for these army lists. Gauls and other Roman-enemies have similar problems. CAN they be competitive? Without ARMOURED and few options for offensive spear, they will sometimes be hurting for POAs. Also, without any options for cavalry, they could be hurting with maneuverability. So, perhaps these armies need to win by swarming the enemy with tons of stands and leave little to no flanks available for the enemy to flank?

Oh, and to the question about the javelins. Most Meso-American tribes would throw atlatl darts, spears and sling stones before closing in and trying to chop up the enemy with their obsidian "swords".

I'm not sure you'll get many first hand experiences with these army lists yet

I think tactics will depend on the main troop type - drilled impact foot armies will need dirrent tactics to undrilled light spear types.

My thoughts on Aztecs are:

- they'll often move first - an 8 MU jump on the enemy.
- the quality troops are a real threat that the enemy will have to face off properly. For example, 4 wide of cauchics with generals should do 6 hits on armoured hoplites, who might do 3 in return. So lose a base, CHT on -3.
- so fix the enemy's attention with the good stuff, and use the drilled guys to manouver and work off that.
- while LF are handy to take ground and give so let the main troops move more quickly, the javelin armed MF need them a bit less for shielding, as they can take on enemy skirmishers in a shooting match.
- drilled MF can run away from anything too scary.

So, all in all, I think the Aztecs might be a decent manouver army, but will need some careful play to win.

grahambriggs wrote: - they'll often move first - an 8 MU jump on the enemy.
- the quality troops are a real threat that the enemy will have to face off properly. For example, 4 wide of cauchics with generals should do 6 hits on armoured hoplites, who might do 3 in return. So lose a base, CHT on -3.
- so fix the enemy's attention with the good stuff, and use the drilled guys to manouver and work off that.
- while LF are handy to take ground and give so let the main troops move more quickly, the javelin armed MF need them a bit less for shielding, as they can take on enemy skirmishers in a shooting match.
- drilled MF can run away from anything too scary.

So, all in all, I think the Aztecs might be a decent manouver army, but will need some careful play to win.

Medium foot can flee?!? I knew that light foot and light horse could (as well as cavalry in a single rank), but I had no idea that medium foot could as well. Could you give me the page number for that little detail?

And to answer the earlier questions... The Cuacheq are mohawk wearing, berserkers. They were quite scary with their Mr. T haircuts and blood thirsty attitudes. Meanwhile the warrior priests wore cone-hats. As far as I know, the Aztecs did not really form up into discrete battlegroups of distinctive troop types. ...Hence the earlier idea that they might be mobs. However, you would have seen layers of troops, where the best fighters would take the lead, and the progressively weaker troops would fight further and further in the rear of the battle line. The thing that makes me sorta confused is the Drilled status of the Cuacheqa. These warriors WERE very disciplined (albeit, a bit impetuous when they got close to the enemy), but they would fight in the dead-center of the battle line and hope to punch through the center. This makes the Drilled designation a bit worthless.

eldiablito wrote: Medium foot can flee?!? I knew that light foot and light horse could (as well as cavalry in a single rank), but I had no idea that medium foot could as well. Could you give me the page number for that little detail?

No, medium foot cannot evade, but due to their maneuverability and speed, they can turn (in the own maneuver phase) and move away from a match they do not like. Once you are too close to your opponent and within charge reach during their impact phase, it is too late to get away. You have to make that decision a turn or two in advance.

Peter C

eldiablito wrote: <snip>

The thing that makes me sorta confused is the Drilled status of the Cuacheqa. These warriors WERE very disciplined (albeit, a bit impetuous when they got close to the enemy), but they would fight in the dead-center of the battle line and hope to punch through the center. This makes the Drilled designation a bit worthless.

Not at all. Even if you choose to run them in the center of your line, the drilled status makes it much less likely that they will charge against orders, allowing you to better coordinate your attack. Also, they will be better able to return to the fight after driving off their close combat opponents. Surprisingly useful, drilled.

Marc

eldiablito wrote: The thing that makes me sorta confused is the Drilled status of the Cuacheqa. These warriors WERE very disciplined (albeit, a bit impetuous when they got close to the enemy), but they would fight in the dead-center of the battle line and hope to punch through the center. This makes the Drilled designation a bit worthless.

Got any sources for this? Not sure I know of any that say they fought in the middle of the battle line. In fact, the sources are annoyingly vague when it comes to such things.

I am aware of evidence that the cauciqueh were used as ambushers, taunters of the enemy and so on. They sometimes were dispersed to stiffen the other troops. They no doubt were not shy in a battle. But why would you think they were undrilled when they were promoted through the ranks of the other units until they achieved Cauchic status? That would be the equivalent of saying if you made a unit out of all the Roman centurions they would be undrilled...

G