Slitherine

Has anybody tried bg's of 9 stands ? I am not sure how that would work in combat but could you not feed the 9th stand in where needed ?

pyrrhus wrote:Has anybody tried bg's of 9 stands ? I am not sure how that would work in combat but could you not feed the 9th stand in where needed ?

That's not legal. See page 22 of the rules - each battle group must initially have an EVEN number of bases. There is an exception when supporting archers are used, but that doesn't apply to pikemen.

Peter C

Other than Elite, 9 is not much better than 8 even were it legal. However 10s start to get very interesting.

Dead. and I often have this debate. I'd run pikes in 10s if I had a pike army (eventually late Ptolemaic ). Dead. would rather keep the 8s and have those extra two figures/points fighting somewhere else.

Blathergut wrote:Dead. and I often have this debate. I'd run pikes in 10s if I had a pike army (eventually late Ptolemaic ). Dead. would rather keep the 8s and have those extra two figures/points fighting somewhere else.

I tend to be a 'bigger battalions' guy myself. It helps to be the last one standing if you have more depth, IMO.

I think it comes down to fighting frontage, pike blocks tend to have a narrow frontage being so deep so they can easily be overlapped, which can be fatal for the pikes. Having extra bodies to the rear means points not spent on other units to help cover those flanks from nasty overlaps.
I have also had pikes that have lost 1 rear base in combat and still go on to slaughter the enemy, on the other hand I have had less occurrences where I have lost the full rear of the block and taken casualties in third rank and lost all pike benefits too, but that has been a rare occurence so far.

All a matter of personal choice and what you feel comfortable with.

Agreed. Sort of a saber or epee call.

Skullzgrinda wrote:Agreed. Sort of a saber or epee call.

I dont know that Id describe any sort of phalanx as an epee. Anvil or sledgehammer perhaps

deadtorius wrote:I think it comes down to fighting frontage, pike blocks tend to have a narrow frontage being so deep so they can easily be overlapped, which can be fatal for the pikes. Having extra bodies to the rear means points not spent on other units to help cover those flanks from nasty overlaps.
I have also had pikes that have lost 1 rear base in combat and still go on to slaughter the enemy, on the other hand I have had less occurrences where I have lost the full rear of the block and taken casualties in third rank and lost all pike benefits too, but that has been a rare occurence so far.

All a matter of personal choice and what you feel comfortable with.

I agree. I started to use pikes in 12, but I haven't yet enough data to say they are worth. Anyway, pikes cannot be used alone, but you must keep in block and with their flank covered. In all cases where I saw pikes with a flank exposed, even if just to an overlap, for pikes were bad moments.

marioslaz wrote:

deadtorius wrote:I think it comes down to fighting frontage, pike blocks tend to have a narrow frontage being so deep so they can easily be overlapped, which can be fatal for the pikes. Having extra bodies to the rear means points not spent on other units to help cover those flanks from nasty overlaps.
I have also had pikes that have lost 1 rear base in combat and still go on to slaughter the enemy, on the other hand I have had less occurrences where I have lost the full rear of the block and taken casualties in third rank and lost all pike benefits too, but that has been a rare occurence so far.

All a matter of personal choice and what you feel comfortable with.

I agree. I started to use pikes in 12, but I haven't yet enough data to say they are worth. Anyway, pikes cannot be used alone, but you must keep in block and with their flank covered. In all cases where I saw pikes with a flank exposed, even if just to an overlap, for pikes were bad moments.

I have been using pike in 12s with real success.

Marc

babyshark wrote:

marioslaz wrote:

deadtorius wrote:I think it comes down to fighting frontage, pike blocks tend to have a narrow frontage being so deep so they can easily be overlapped, which can be fatal for the pikes. Having extra bodies to the rear means points not spent on other units to help cover those flanks from nasty overlaps.
I have also had pikes that have lost 1 rear base in combat and still go on to slaughter the enemy, on the other hand I have had less occurrences where I have lost the full rear of the block and taken casualties in third rank and lost all pike benefits too, but that has been a rare occurence so far.

All a matter of personal choice and what you feel comfortable with.

I agree. I started to use pikes in 12, but I haven't yet enough data to say they are worth. Anyway, pikes cannot be used alone, but you must keep in block and with their flank covered. In all cases where I saw pikes with a flank exposed, even if just to an overlap, for pikes were bad moments.

I have been using pike in 12s with real success.

Marc

What in particular? Extra file gives overlap at times? Commander joins in and mods extra file? Counts 9 bodies for shooting instead of 6?

Counts 9 bodies for shooting makes a HUGE difference. Lots of time you will suffer 2 hits, less often will you suffer 3.

I had a 12 pike block at Cold Iron over the weekend, the only time it really hit home was against Gino's 8 man Ptolemaic pikes, and I could not get the extra 4 into the fight due to his Cretan bow being in the way. It helped though as I had 9 in my front 3 ranks compared to his 6, and therefore needed to take 3 hits to count a -1 for hpb in melee to his 2.

Although the way those pike were rolling Gino could have had a -50 roll & passed, they were stubborn sods.

I have been running blocks of 8, but am thinking of going to 12's. My thinking is that if I want to hold and allow the cav to attack then, when frontage is a problem I can have a frontage of 4 and depth of 3. This costs slightly more than an offensive spear BG of the same frontage and I belive gives an even POA, but when practicle I can go with a reduced frontage and more depth for a better chance of breakthrough.

Blathergut wrote:

babyshark wrote:I have been using pike in 12s with real success.

Marc

What in particular? Extra file gives overlap at times? Commander joins in and mods extra file? Counts 9 bodies for shooting instead of 6?

All of the above. Plus it is harder for the opponent to give my pikes a -1 on CTs for HP2B in shooting and HP3B in melee. This is a non-trivial advantage.

Marc

will05 wrote:I have been running blocks of 8, but am thinking of going to 12's. My thinking is that if I want to hold and allow the cav to attack then, when frontage is a problem I can have a frontage of 4 and depth of 3. This costs slightly more than an offensive spear BG of the same frontage and I belive gives an even POA, but when practicle I can go with a reduced frontage and more depth for a better chance of breakthrough.

Yeah, you'll find they always fail the cmt when you need it most even with a IC attached... The dice hate us like that..

will05 wrote:I have been running blocks of 8, but am thinking of going to 12's. My thinking is that if I want to hold and allow the cav to attack then, when frontage is a problem I can have a frontage of 4 and depth of 3. This costs slightly more than an offensive spear BG of the same frontage and I belive gives an even POA, but when practicle I can go with a reduced frontage and more depth for a better chance of breakthrough.

I use a similar tactic, with a Cav attack, but I'm still developing my way. My intention is to delay the clash to the centre, but I'm not satisfied with the way I performed since today, that consisted in leaving my pikes in their initial position, because they become too much isolated at a very early stage of the game. My idea is to use LF to delay opponent's heavy foot, principally stopping their second moves since I cannot rely on shooting effect. This week I should play a Carthaginian army against a Roman one and I would like to try this tactic (Carthaginian hasn't pikes, but this tactic fit well to this army). The idea is to obtain a good timing between Cav and foot, with Cav which starts melee first and, I hope, it wins when foot are closing the distance with their opponents, so Cav will be near to foot and ready to intervene.

Only downside I can see to 12 pikes is that if you do a 90 degree turn you end up with that extra rank filling in behind and will take a turn to expand out again.
I agree they sound more useful than the propsed 10 stands which we heard about a while ago. I have enough figs to do another pike block, might have to do then up so I can get my 2 existing blocks up to 12's and give it a go. One thing about a pike army, you can never have enough pikes in it.

The only downside to blocks of 12 that I can see is that it's harder to get rear support. But that is somewhat offset by the need for more hits to generate -1 CTs.

I never bother with rear support in my pike army, if it gets that bad your probably in such a bad state that the rear support is about to become the front line.