Slitherine

Well, It's me again, now with a new topic to discuss about the Carthaginian Army.

I see this army as a very versatile combined arms, with some very powerful units. Excellent skirmishers, pretty good line troops (the option to use Hannibal's veterans makes the African Spearmen one of the best line units in-period), and good cavalry, and well, of course Elephants.
With all this toys in the army, it seems difficult, at least for me, to decide which units to include in the army. Also, it may be difficult to find a place and a role for every BG in the army, as I see it, it's not an easy army to use. Easy armies are the ones with primarly one troop type, and very few supports, at least that's what I think... how do you see it? Easy or difficult army? An army for starers, for experts or equally good for both?

The option to include the Libyphoenician cavalry is really tempting, because of the Drilled thing, and of course, because it gives us the chance to get one more BG of Armoured guys, instead of more protected Gallic & Spaniards, so I think it's really worth it. But... were they used by Hannibal?
About elephants... well... I really DON'T like them , so how do you see a Carthaginian army without this beasts? I know that Hannibal couldn't use them too much after he crossed the Alps, because many of this animals died, and of the 7 remaining, just one survived winter... so historicaly it would be accurate, and as I really don't like them, well, I wouldn't use them.

The Balearic Slingers are superior, my question is... is it worth to pay for that? Or is it better to get more javelinmen? I know it's Only 5 points each base, but well, maybe you have different opinions about this, or maybe not.
Would it be accurate to use them in the army of Hannibal's Vets? Or maybe just more javelinmen?
What about the Numidian guys? More Numidian Light Horse or more Spanish Light Horse? The same with the Javelinmen. Personally I really like the Spanish miniatures, but it would be a shame not to have a BG of Numidians, because they were really outstanding as skirmishers historically, and it would give more ethnic variety to the Carthaginian Army. And this variety is what it makes it great, at least for me

I've read that the Gauls that fought with Hannibal also stole a lot of Roman equipment after the battles (I even read that of the 20,000 Gallic warriors that Hannibal commanded, 6,000 were classified as "light infantry" but just because they didn't have chainmails or other stolen equipment... I think it was in one of Osprey Books, the one of the Punic Wars, of course), so why don't the veteran gauls get the option of being Armoured? At least just 0-8, or maybe even a smaller BG of 6? Anyway, I'd use this guys, as they're great shock troops, and add some nice colors to the army...

Well, so, ANY thoughts about this army, like how you've seen it being played, how you yourselves played with it, what do you focus on when you're making the army list, and everything else, would be really appreciated. I really like to learn more about the FoG armies (as you may have imagined ), and of course, the cultures and the history of this people

First, this actually belongs in the Army Design forum - a Carthag search should turn up posts.

Second, the ratings and comment at http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-ind ... rthaginian suggest to me that there are people struggling with it as you are and those who see it working well and might answer questions.

Votes
2 A-Good all round
3 B-Strong at least in theme or era
5 C-Competent but Uneven
...
1 None of the Above

The number of Cs in the mix suggests to me people who haven't found its full potential or who have played against people who haven't.

I think it's definitely a solid B but I haven't voted yet since it might be an A - if handled right. Certainly allows a lot of scope for practice making perfect.

Its a very hard army to put together, mainly as few of the troop types in it are any good.

I'd suggest starting either with as many of the armoured/superior spearmen as you can get, all the elephants and then adding support troops to them, or just have as much cavalry as you can buy and try and create a mounted army by default.

Otherwise its built on protected average spearmen and protected average impact foot, neither of which are especially good (see other threads) .

MikeK wrote:First, this actually belongs in the Army Design forum - a Carthag search should turn up posts.

Right you are. And I invoke my magical Moderator powers to make it so.

Marc

Well, thanks for moving it. I thought it should be in General Discussion because maybe it's about the army itself, the tactics, the different uses of the troops and all that, and maybe it could be in General, but now I think you're right.

So, you say this army has a learning curve, and at first it may be difficult to find the right way to use it, because, as Madaxeman says, almost all the troops are quite average, but when you find the right list or the right way to use it, it may be unstopable.
The thing about elephants, as you suggest, Madaxeman, is that I really don't like them , so I don't think I'd use them.

I know it's just protected average foot soldiers (in fact I think that Spanish and Gallic MF Impact Foot / Sw are pretty good, but that's just an opinion), so Veterans would be the core of my army... also I like the idea of Drilled Gallic Foot

Any more thougths would be appreciated.

Valhalla wrote: but when you find the right list or the right way to use it, it may be unstopable.

I'm genuinely not sure about this - especially in semi-open competitions. No matter how many permutations of weaponry and HF/MF you pick, loads of Average protected and unprotected foot will struggle against anything armoured, and protected spearmen are inherently brittle so can always go badly wrong.

With a bit of luck elephants and spears can be unstoppable, but thats often not entirely down to tactics

I actually think it has some potential. Here is what I see:

• 18 African Veterans. These are the core of the army and very good troops. Can take on virtually anything in the game and drilled is very nice.
• A solid if unspectacual mix of skirmishers.
• Useful but limited cavalry, the 8 armoured ltspear/sw are pretty good. Probably worth buying on protect ltspear/sw it can either be a rear support (for cavalry or the spearmen) or is an extra formed unit to help out on the flanks.
• I think the best of the rest are the drilled Spanish Scutarrii, if they were superior this army would really be solid but even as average drilled they are probably handy.
• The elephant is a tough call. It gives you a bit more punch that would really be nice to have (say with the Spanish) but it is then the only unmaneuverable unit in the army which isn't geat either.

The Zama list is also pretty good, less African Veterans, but the Bruttian veterans are pretty good as well and you can take 3 BGs of elephants which might be an interesting option...

Haven't actually used a Carthaginian army myself but thought about it originally, but here are some of my own observations from using some similar troop types in other armies. Spanish versus Romans, your going to get slaughtered if your opponent goes skilled superior sword. You go into impact even but from then on its ++ Roman -- Spanish. Spears cancel the sword, and your + for spear will cancel out the armour so your even with Romans getting the re-rolls. Drilled troops are worth the points, most of my army is drilled even the poor citizen militia and you can manouver them easily compared to undrilled troops who will take forever or just stand there scratching their heads.
Actually Elephants will be your best bet against Roman heavies, but they are hit or miss to be honest. If they do well they should eat the Romans, fail a death roll and kiss the elephants goodbye, rather brittle that way.
Overall could be a hard army to use, not sure the light spears will get the spear POA in melee and a lot of your army choices are light spear not offensive spear. I think you will have to out think your opponent using your lights to stall the main line while you try to take a flank and move in for a flank attack on your enemy. Not sure they would do too well in a head on contact dragged out melee.

The best bets against the Romans are elephants as noted, but also:

Veteran African Spearmen: Down a PoA at impact, but assuming they can survive with morale intact up a PoA in melee. If disrupted even in melee.

Armoured Spanish/Gallic or Libyan cavalry: Up a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Assuming you have 18 armoued spear and 8 armoured cavalry you can take on 13 files of roman infantry or 26 stands.

ethan wrote: Armoured Spanish/Gallic or Libyan cavalry: Up a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Against what? Not Legions.

philqw78 wrote:

ethan wrote: Armoured Spanish/Gallic or Libyan cavalry: Up a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Against what? Not Legions.

Doh, yeah you are correct. Down a PoA at impact, even in melee.

ethan wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

ethan wrote: Armoured Spanish/Gallic or Libyan cavalry: Up a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Against what? Not Legions.

Doh, yeah you are correct. Down a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Then sign me up for a bucket-load of those babies - yee-hah, better start quaking Mr Roman, Hannibal's comin' to getcha with a big fat can of whup-ass cavalry*!!

tim

(* and some very lucky dice rolling).

ethan wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

ethan wrote: Armoured Spanish/Gallic or Libyan cavalry: Up a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Against what? Not Legions.

Doh, yeah you are correct. Down a PoA at impact, even in melee.

I don't understand. Why down a PoA at impact? They have the same capabilities (Light Spears, Swordmen). In melee instead you can have Armoured vs Protected, but both side can choose between 2 armor types, so PoA at melee are unpredictable.

marioslaz wrote:

ethan wrote:

philqw78 wrote: Against what? Not Legions.

Doh, yeah you are correct. Down a PoA at impact, even in melee.

I don't understand. Why down a PoA at impact? They have the same capabilities (Light Spears, Swordmen). In melee instead you can have Armoured vs Protected, but both side can choose between 2 armor types, so PoA at melee are unpredictable.

Cavalry light spear only counts if no other POA's apply, foot light spear almost always applies.

ethan wrote:The best bets against the Romans are elephants as noted, but also:

Veteran African Spearmen: Down a PoA at impact, but assuming they can survive with morale intact up a PoA in melee. If disrupted even in melee.

Armoured Spanish/Gallic or Libyan cavalry: Up a PoA at impact, even in melee.

Assuming you have 18 armoued spear and 8 armoured cavalry you can take on 13 files of roman infantry or 26 stands.

Carthaginian cavalry is equal to Roman one for PoA (light spear, swordsmen, armoured) but Carthaginian cavalry can be Superior.
If you want to use cavalry against legionaries instead against Roman cavalry, you need a lot of attention and you need to isolate a BG of legionaries. In fact, if you deploy your cavalry in a single block with your spearmen, after melee cavalry could break off and this would be devastating for spearmen which could find with a flank exposed to a Romans' overlap.

marioslaz wrote: If you want to use cavalry against legionaries instead against Roman cavalry, you need a lot of attention and you need to isolate a BG of legionaries. In fact, if you deploy your cavalry in a single block with your spearmen, after melee cavalry could break off and this would be devastating for spearmen which could find with a flank exposed to a Romans' overlap.

Were I to do this, I would use them on the edge coming into the line at an angle so the Romans would have to face off against the cav rather than have a single undisrupted line.

You could try to get your lights to pull them Roman dogs out of their pretty little lines and then use the cav to try and get on the flank for a flank charge, if it works drops them 1 level of cohesion and dice loss with it. Still will be pretty hard to get the upper hand on the Romans with protected troops.

OK, so I've created a 700 points army, let me know what you think

Hannibal in mainland Italy
IC (Hannibal)
TC x 2
1 BG (4 Bases) Gallic Cavalry - Cv / Armoured / Superior / Undrilled / Lt Sp / Swordsmen
1 BG (4 Bases) Libyphoenician Cavalry - Cv / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Lt Sp / Swordsmen
1 BG (6 Bases) Numidian / Spaniard Light Horse - LH / Unprotected / Average / Undrilled / Lt Sp / Javelins
2 BG (8 Bases each) Veteran African Spearmen - HF / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Off Sp
1 BG (6 Bases) Balearic Slingers - LF / Unprotected / Superior / Undrilled / Sling
1 BG (6 Bases) Spaniard / Numidian Javelinmen - LF / Unprotected / Average / Undrilled / Lt Sp / Javelins
1 BG (8 Bases) Veteran Gallic Foot - HF / Protected / Average / Drilled / Impact Foot / Swordsmen
1 BG (6 Bases) Scutarii - MF / Protected / Average / Drilled / Impact Foot / Swordsmen

It was designed to be both cheap in money and useful hahaha (difficult thing), but you can always make any suggestions

I would try to get 2x4 Numidians instead of 1x6, dump some Balearic slingers to get the foot. I would also try and get the Scutarii up to an 8.

Maybe drop the slingers get 30AP back, spend 14 to buy 2 more LH split the LH into 2x4 so you BG count stays the same. Spend the other 16AP on 2 more Spanish to make then an 8 as well.

I would also consider dropping the Gauls and splitting hte Spear int 3x6EE BGs. Dropping the Gauls saves you 64AP (I think), 2 more SP are 26AP leaving you with 38AP to spend. Maybe get your slingers back with 30 AP and buy 2 more bases of Javelinmen. So something like:

1 BG (4 Bases) Gallic Cavalry - Cv / Armoured / Superior / Undrilled / Lt Sp / Swordsmen
1 BG (4 Bases) Libyphoenician Cavalry - Cv / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Lt Sp / Swordsmen
2 BG (4 Bases) Numidian / Spaniard Light Horse - LH / Unprotected / Average / Undrilled / Lt Sp / Javelins
3 BG (6 Bases each) Veteran African Spearmen - HF / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Off Sp
1 BG (6 Bases) Balearic Slingers - LF / Unprotected / Superior / Undrilled / Sling
1 BG (8 Bases) Spaniard / Numidian Javelinmen - LF / Unprotected / Average / Undrilled / Lt Sp / Javelins
1 BG (8 Bases) Scutarii - MF / Protected / Average / Drilled / Impact Foot / Swordsmen

10BGs total.

Lh works best in 4's. We tried 6's back when we first played and found it was always getting in the way. Your offensive armoured spears are going to be your best shot against Romans, he might try to avoid them adn go for your Spanish which will be an easy kill for him if he wins the impact.
Some things to keep in mind.
Looks good otherwise, I would take Ethans advice at 700 points you dont want too much in the way of lights they can't really hold terrain or be much help otherwise.