Slitherine

Do you have to declare that your archers have stakes at the start of the game? Also, once in place, would knights etc still have to take a test to avoid charging across them?

Also I played a newish player last night, a former DBMer and the concensus was that the table telling you how many dice to roll isn't very clear. My friend has a doctorate so he's no fool and even he struggled to get the meaning.

"1 dice per base of 1st shooting rank if in effective range"
"1 dice per 2 bases of 2nd shooting rank or outside effective range"

It really isn't very good English IMO, it really seems confusing.

My understanding of it is that if I have 7 longbow shooting at effective range I shoot all bases from the front rank so 4 dice there. It's 1 dice per 2 bases from the back rank:

Is that another 2 dice with every alternate base firing?

1 die with every alternate base not firing?

Or 1 die because there are 3 back rankers giving 3 dice, 1 base per 2 is the same as half and half of 3 bases is 1.5 bases. So that's 1 die with the half being useless unless I can find another "half die" from another shooting unit to pair it up with?

Three different methods of calculation, all perfectly valid but it really is not clear to newbies like my friend or occasional players like myself what it is that the authors meant. Most players I have met seem to use the last method of calculation but that doesn't seem to be what the rules say. If they meant half the back rank rounded down, why not just say that?

Finally what happens when you have just two archers at the end of a line shooting at a different target to the main body? It's effective range so front rank guys fire; 1 die, back rank guys join in; 1 die per 2 bases from rear ranks it would seem but there's only 1 base....ah! So do they fire or don't they? If you take the 1 die per 2 bases to mean half, which emphatically is not what what was written but we'll go with it, that's half a die from the rear rank, again, no use unless I can find another shooting BG with half a die to pair it up with. Is this correct?

I really, really want to like FoG but there just seems too much to take in, for me at any rate. It's like a Haines Car Manual, simple enough in its parts but really complex and difficult when you try to put it all together and into action, just too much to remember. More and more it seems like a slog to get through games because of stuff like the above and maybe it's me but sometimes I'm glad when a game ends because my head hurts from trying to find stuff and I'm a bit bored. It probably IS just me, I couldn't write a better set, I'd be the first to admit it.

Alan, count the number of bases firing that meet the criteria, ie 4 in effective, 3 in second rank. So 4 full dice and then 1 dice per 2 base in the back rank gives 1.5 dice, but rounding down gives 1. So 5 dice in all.

They don't say "half the back rank rounded down" because shooting dice is determined by total number of bases shooting.

Say you had 2 BGs shooting at the same target, each 6 bases in a 3 frontage and 2 deep in effective range:

Total of 6 front rank shooters in effective gives 6 dice, for the second rank there are 6 bases so 3 dice giving 9 shooting dice. If you just did each BG rounded down you'd only have 2 rear rank dice.

Steve P

AlanYork wrote:Do you have to declare that your archers have stakes at the start of the game? Also, once in place, would knights etc still have to take a test to avoid charging across them?

Yes all capabilties are declared at the start, or when troops first appear from ambush/flank march. And shock troops do have to test not to charge over them.

AlanYork wrote:Also I played a newish player last night, a former DBMer and the concensus was that the table telling you how many dice to roll isn't very clear. My friend has a doctorate so he's no fool and even he struggled to get the meaning.

"1 dice per base of 1st shooting rank if in effective range"
"1 dice per 2 bases of 2nd shooting rank or outside effective range"

It really isn't very good English IMO, it really seems confusing.

My understanding of it is that if I have 7 longbow shooting at effective range I shoot all bases from the front rank so 4 dice there. It's 1 dice per 2 bases from the back rank:

Is that another 2 dice with every alternate base firing?

1 die with every alternate base not firing?

Or 1 die because there are 3 back rankers giving 3 dice, 1 base per 2 is the same as half and half of 3 bases is 1.5 bases. So that's 1 die with the half being useless unless I can find another "half die" from another shooting unit to pair it up with?

If there are 3 bases in the second rank you get 1 dice per 2 bases and round down, so 1 dice.

AlanYork wrote:Three different methods of calculation, all perfectly valid but it really is not clear to newbies like my friend or occasional players like myself what it is that the authors meant. Most players I have met seem to use the last method of calculation but that doesn't seem to be what the rules say. If they meant half the back rank rounded down, why not just say that?

I don't see how 1 dice per 2 bases can be configured 3 different ways. If you have 1 second shooting rank base you get no more dice, if you have 2 you get 1 more dice, etc. The rules state that shooting dice are rounded down. I think this must be a carry over from 7th edition and before of WRG where counting rear ranks was done in this way, count first, third, fifth, etc.

philqw78 and stenic thanks guys but you both appear to be saying slightly different things. Absolutely no criticism intended whatsoever but it proves my point nicely.

One of you says it's just 1 die per 2 bases rounded down, the other says you in effect divide rear rank bases by 2 to get the number of shooting dice which will possibly leave "half dice". Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting.

philqw78 you appear to be saying it's just 1 per 2 rounded down which would give 2 rear rank bases shooting in the example stenic gave if you work it out by looking at firers first, 3 rear rank shooters if you work it out by looking at the target and how many bases are shooting at it. So off the player goes to dive into the book for five minutes to see which it is. The answer IS there but the book is so thick and the indexing so cumbersome, after having to spend time seemingly every round looking this kind of stuff up I get a bit bored to be honest. Hence my "Haines Car Manual" observation above. Maybe I just don't play FoG enough.

AlanYork wrote:philqw78 and stenic thanks guys but you both appear to be saying slightly different things. Absolutely no criticism intended whatsoever but it proves my point nicely.

One of you says it's just 1 die per 2 bases rounded down, the other says you in effect divide rear rank bases by 2 to get the number of shooting dice. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting.

philqw78 you appear to be saying it's just 1 per 2 rounded down which would give 2 rear rank bases shooting in the example stenic gave if you work it out by looking at firers first, 3 rear rank shooters if you work it out by looking at the target and how many bases are shooting at it. So off the player goes to dive into the book for five minutes to see which it is. The answer IS there but the book is so thick and the indexing so cumbersome, after having to spend time seemingly every round looking this kind of stuff up I get a bit bored to be honest. Hence my "Haines Car Manual" observation.

I thought we said the same thing. Half your second rank bases. Round down. If you have more than one BG shooting you still halve the bases. Its just you have more to halve. Or more inline with what the rules say, 1 per 2 bases. So divide the second shooting rank bases by 2, then round down because it is 1 per 2, not 1 per part of 2.

But yes the indexing is terrible.

There is this useful table from the FAQ

There is no rounding in FoG.

You either get 1 dice per N or lose 1 dice per N but in all cases you have to have at least N in order to get or lose dice.

In effect you always round down the number of dice you gain or lose but you don't actually do any dividing or rounding, just count and for every 2 bases you have in the second shooting rank you get a dice.

AlanYork wrote:philqw78 and stenic thanks guys but you both appear to be saying slightly different things. Absolutely no criticism intended whatsoever but it proves my point nicely.

Think of it this way if it helps:

1 dice per 2 bases worth of a) shooting from the 2nd rank of shooters and/or b) shooting from any shooter outside of effective range.

But in effect, yes the odd base is effectively useless (for shooting) until you can find another base to even it up.

Steve P

philqw78 wrote: I thought we said the same thing.

You did

1 dice per two bases seems pretty straightforward to me.
1 base - no dice.
2 bases - 1 dice.

For every full two bases you get one dice. Just like it says.

philqw78 wrote:

AlanYork wrote:Also, once in place, would knights etc still have to take a test to avoid charging across them?

And shock troops do have to test not to charge over them.

(See FAQ)