Slitherine

In quite a few armies in Empires of the Dragon and Swifter than Eagles you get mixed BGs of half MF (or occassionaly HF) Light Spear , Swordsmen, half MF Bow or Crossbow.
These are the same points as a BG purely of Light Spear, Swordsmen. So the Bow or Crossbow capability is effectively free, and makes these much better than a BG of solely MF Light Spear, Swordsmen for the same points.
Another way of saying it is you'd always choose the mixed BG if you had the choice.
Yes I know the rear rank in the mixed BGs don't have swordsmen capability (or if they do they're more points) but that's pretty immaterial, as once you start to lose bases you're probably going down anyway.

This doesn't seem right to me, and means that in a biblical theme the armies without the mixed BGs are at a big disdadvantage. Why would you want a MF Light Spear based army when you could have one with the better mixed BGs for the same points.

I think that the mixed battle groups are (funnily enough) a mixed blessing. True you get some missile fire from your BG, but at reduced effect compared to 'pure' missile units. However, once base losses occur the fact the missile troops have to fight will probably accelerate your demise compared with having dedicated close combat troops in the rear rank (at least in my experience), or if you're unlucky with your death rolls turn a winning fight into a losing one (as has happened to me).

Having said that, I think that most of my crossbows will be taken in mixed units where possible, it will make them a little less vulnerable to infantry types - I hope!

The Light Spear has been commented as being the free element. These mixed groups are less likely to be blown away at impact by other Light Spear or Impact foot but without sword will get butchered in melee. Especially if they are armoured.

They have an edge over pure shooters but that is about as far as they will go I think.

paulburton wrote:....but without sword will get butchered in melee.

But they do have swordsmen skill - well the front rank does and until they take losses that's all that matters.

Ah! Most of the mixed formations I saw in Empires were half Bow or Crossbow, half bow/crossbow with Light Spear. I have seen mixed formations of half spear half bow and they tend to get butchered (Achaemenid Immortals vs Roman Auxilia). Scandinavian HW/Crossbow, Sword fared badly when I used them with a friend.

The problem happens when you lose front rank bases and your swordsman capability goes away. If you are particularly unfortunate you can end up losing 2 front rank swordsmen bases and then you are in real trouble.

paulburton wrote:Ah! Most of the mixed formations I saw in Empires were half Bow or Crossbow, half bow/crossbow with Light Spear. I have seen mixed formations of half spear half bow and they tend to get butchered (Achaemenid Immortals vs Roman Auxilia). Scandinavian HW/Crossbow, Sword fared badly when I used them with a friend.

Immortals are all light spear, bow and can be armoured. In 8s they've fine against Roman Auxilia. Especially since they'll fight as elites. Shooting may disrupt, they'll win the impact quite handily and elite rerolling means they are almost par in the melee despite being a POA down. You might be thinking of the ordinary persian foot who are 2 POAs down in melee against armoured swordsmen.

hammy wrote:The problem happens when you lose front rank bases and your swordsman capability goes away. If you are particularly unfortunate you can end up losing 2 front rank swordsmen bases and then you are in real trouble.

Yes but if you've lost two front rank bases (or even one) you're going to be in trouble anyway. It's rare that average troops do this without being at least disrupted, so having swordsman skill on the remaining bases wouldn't be likely to save you anyway.

Would you ever choose a BG of all MF Light Spear Swordsmen if you could choose to have half bow, for the same points ?

Polkovnik wrote:

hammy wrote:The problem happens when you lose front rank bases and your swordsman capability goes away. If you are particularly unfortunate you can end up losing 2 front rank swordsmen bases and then you are in real trouble.

Yes but if you've lost two front rank bases (or even one) you're going to be in trouble anyway. It's rare that average troops do this without being at least disrupted, so having swordsman skill on the remaining bases wouldn't be likely to save you anyway.

Would you ever choose a BG of all MF Light Spear Swordsmen if you could choose to have half bow, for the same points ?

Good question, I suppose the answer is probably not. There is a tendancy to be more aggressive with the mixed BGs and get them into places where they probably shouldn't be because they might do a bit with their shooting. Plain bow free BGs on the other hand you never get tempted to just nudge into range

I thought of another problem with mixed BGs BTW. If you are charged in the rear it is really not pleasant. This is far worse though if the rear rank are light foot.