Slitherine

Hi Folks,

Had a complicated situation in a recent game...so wanted to check if we got it right.

Initial situation as shown below:


Orange BGs 1 & 2 were fragmented and broke when charged in impact phase by BGs B & C.
{BG2 is facing towards flank of BGA}

Now looking at sequence of play the rout move happens straight away and directly away from the charge....but no one pursues till near the end of the phase. So we did the routs and ended up with:


Then BGs A, B & C pursued...with A & C hitting BG2.

So question 1 - did we do this right?

Qestion 2 - if BG C hadn't charged straight ahead but had angled its charge down the page...then BG2 would have to rout directly away from charge...but wouldn't have been able to get passed BG C with only a sideways move of up to 1 base widht...so would be destroyed at the end of the impact phase. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance

For me BG 2 don't move, because it must stop 1 MU from enemy (and from drawing it seems it is already near 1 MU from A). So C hits 2 and A pursuits 1.

Hi Mario,

BG 2 was close BG A.

To be honest we moved stuff as we would have under other sets then wondered if we'd got it right etc. So I wanted to explore what we should have done....so thanks fot your thoughts.

But I'm not aware of a stop at 1 MU rule (except for the one about pursuers (pg 108)) {there is also the now wheel when trying to flank charge within 1 MU...but not aware of any others....which isn't same thing as no other cases!}

So I think if BG 2 can wheel (without bumping into BG A) so can rout directly away from charge then will do so...and can slide up to 1 base width to get passed BG A (but no more)...

Regards,

Gavin

look on page 168 full turn sequence, you did right by routing from breaking for fragged charge.
The charging units then move in on their charge so yes 2 would likely have ended up in front of A if there was room for it to rout in there.
Basically if the chargers catch the routers you remove 1 stand per contacted enemy at the end of the impact phase so you would be short a base or 2 I would think.

If 2 could not have cleared A using the evade section for making any turns etc to avoid enemy, then it would have been destroyed when it hit enemy A at the end of the impact phase. Page 100 intial rout section 4th bullet.
I would assume that if it could not have gotten past A it would stop and then A would have continued its charge although the rules don't specifically say that A has to stay or pursue if it is contacted by routing enemy, just that the enemy is destroyed at the end of the phase. I guess C would then have moved into rear contact with 2 during its charge move and made contact with 2.

Hope that helped a bit

deadtorius wrote:look on page 168 full turn sequence, you did right by routing from breaking for fragged charge.
The charging units then move in on their charge so yes 2 would likely have ended up in front of A if there was room for it to rout in there.
Basically if the chargers catch the routers you remove 1 stand per contacted enemy at the end of the impact phase so you would be short a base or 2 I would think.

If 2 could not have cleared A using the evade section for making any turns etc to avoid enemy, then it would have been destroyed when it hit enemy A at the end of the impact phase. Page 100 intial rout section 4th bullet.
I would assume that if it could not have gotten past A it would stop and then A would have continued its charge although the rules don't specifically say that A has to stay or pursue if it is contacted by routing enemy, just that the enemy is destroyed at the end of the phase. I guess C would then have moved into rear contact with 2 during its charge move and made contact with 2.

Hope that helped a bit

I recently started a thread on here about the ability of a BG charging a Fragged enemy being able to declare a wheel (up to 90 degrees) at the very last moment to force the routing BG to burst through some of its freindlies. No one except me and a couple of my team mates seemed to be overly worried about this ability to force a routing enemy in a direction of your choosing. I think it is exploitable and that the definition of 'Directly Away from the enemy' needs some work but there was not much support for my concern.

Gino
SMAC

Wheeling when charging is restricted by not having less bases who can make contact with the enemy after the wheel than before.... or something like that. Can't recall the wording. I think that the charge section states you have to move directly towards an enemy so last minute wheeling should not be allowed unless necessary to help line up paralell to your target, not so you can direct the enemies rout in a direction of your choice.
not sure exactly what the rules state but I think that was the authors intent.

Seems like it should be restricted but the only limitation is that "you cannot wheel within 1 inch to create a rear or flank charge" and "you cannot wheel in such a manner to put less bases into contact than if you had moved straight forward" I am paraphrasing these rules here but you still have a significant amount of wheeling at the last moment (up to 90 degrees in fact) to force a fragged BG that then breaks into friendlies. I suggested that a better choice of words would be to only allow a wheel in a charge if it would bring more bases into contact than if the BG moved straight forward but that suggestion was also rejected.

If you put 3 or 4 BG's on a table an look at the range you can force a BG into on a charge which breaks them on impact (ie before conforming) you have the opening for some cheese because suddenly your BG's that are in support and safe from a rout directly to the rear are now going to be burst through.

Gino
SMAC

kal5056 wrote:Seems like it should be restricted but the only limitation is that "you cannot wheel within 1 inch to create a rear or flank charge" and "you cannot wheel in such a manner to put less bases into contact than if you had moved straight forward" I am paraphrasing these rules here but you still have SMAC

Just a quick note here you can wheel within an inch of the enemy to make a rear charge just not a flank charge.

As far as I can tell you did it right, and according to your drawing you could have wheeled with bg C and still hit at least the same amount of bases as if you charged straight ahead causing bg 2 to have no where to go and explode on spot.

deadtorius wrote:look on page 168 full turn sequence, you did right by routing from breaking for fragged charge.
The charging units then move in on their charge so yes 2 would likely have ended up in front of A if there was room for it to rout in there.
Basically if the chargers catch the routers you remove 1 stand per contacted enemy at the end of the impact phase so you would be short a base or 2 I would think.

If 2 could not have cleared A using the evade section for making any turns etc to avoid enemy, then it would have been destroyed when it hit enemy A at the end of the impact phase. Page 100 intial rout section 4th bullet.
I would assume that if it could not have gotten past A it would stop and then A would have continued its charge although the rules don't specifically say that A has to stay or pursue if it is contacted by routing enemy, just that the enemy is destroyed at the end of the phase. I guess C would then have moved into rear contact with 2 during its charge move and made contact with 2.

Hope that helped a bit

I agree that this is an odd situation and perhaps a strictly reading of the rules could avail your solution. But, please, stop a while and look at the full diagram. BG 2 flee in front of BG A, but do you really mean this? BG 1 instead to flee toward safety flees in the mouth of enemy. BG A which is in contact of BG 1 instead of pursuing BG 1 will hit BG 2, which sprang from nowhere (ok, it was on the right flank of BG A, but how can it interpose between BG A and 1 which were in contact?). I still consider my solution more logical.

The reason I posted it was two fold.....
(a) to check we were understanding semi-complex situations like this correctly and
(b) as Mario says .... because it looks so odd as BG 1 routs, so the troops fighting it (BG A) set off in pursuit only to suddenly find BG 2 appear in front of them (so they pursued into it instead) and BG 1 got away.

So my conclusion - we got it right by the rules - BUT it doesn't really represent 'reality' that well.

Thanks to all those who've contributed.

I dont think you did this correctly. This is one area where looking at the full turn sequence can be misleading. If you look at page 68 in the rules - Sequence of Charges and Responses if says that each charge must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence and the active player decides which order they are actioned.

So as the active player you can do the charge of C at BG2 first and looking at the diagram BG2 will not be able to avoid the enemy BG A and will therefore be destroyed. You then do the charge of BG B at unit 1.

The full turn sequence is evades before charges.

so all evades are actioned before any charges

philqw78 wrote:so all evades are actioned before any charges

Mmmmm... perhaps are you not satisfied of your status of "Gallic Nobles" and your new strategy is to write many posts of a single row only?
Anyway, in this case there aren't any evasions, but rout due to fragmented BG charged by enemy.

ottomanmjm wrote:I dont think you did this correctly. This is one area where looking at the full turn sequence can be misleading. If you look at page 68 in the rules - Sequence of Charges and Responses if says that each charge must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence and the active player decides which order they are actioned.

So as the active player you can do the charge of C at BG2 first and looking at the diagram BG2 will not be able to avoid the enemy BG A and will therefore be destroyed. You then do the charge of BG B at unit 1.

And if "B" charge is carried out first, "A" pursues "1" and there isn't any problem of odd situations. Not sure rules state so, but it works.

marioslaz wrote:...perhaps are you not satisfied of your status of "Gallic Nobles" and your new strategy is to write many posts of a single row only?

Don't like Garlic

philqw78 wrote:so all evades are actioned before any charges

So why on p68 does it say "Once all responses and charge moves have been completed, impact combat is resolved"?

If all evades were performed before charges then the above sentence would be redundant.

Regardless of whether evades, or routs in the original question, are performed before charges the active player still deccides the order of charges and so can make unit 2 rout before unit 1, thus destroying unit 2 as it cannot avoid enemy.

ottomanmjm wrote:

philqw78 wrote:so all evades are actioned before any charges

So why on p68 does it say "Once all responses and charge moves have been completed, impact combat is resolved"?

If all evades were performed before charges then the above sentence would be redundant.

Regardless of whether evades, or routs in the original question, are performed before charges the active player still deccides the order of charges and so can make unit 2 rout before unit 1, thus destroying unit 2 as it cannot avoid enemy.

As I already said, rout and evade are different. For example, evader who cannot avoid enemy stop at 1 MU, instead router is destroyed. Anyway, your solution works and IMO is in the spirit of rules where they say: "Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence [...] if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned". I mean that looking at full turn sequence with this phrase in mind, you must make all evade moves related to a specific charge before to move chargers (I used plural for evaders and chargers because you can have both one charge against more evaders, and more chargers against one evader; both case IMO need to be treated at once) but not all evaders of all declared charges in this turn. You make all evasion in one specific charge, next you move chargers, than you go to the next charge and move all evaders of this charge, and so on.

You do all the evades first, then the charges.