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orb formation
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:13 pm
by zeitoun
Hi ,
Can a BG with 2 bases (triarii for example) be in "ORB formation" ? Is there a minimum of bases to form ORB ?
Thanks
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:26 pm
by philqw78
Yes it can. No there isn't.
Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:17 pm
by zeitoun
thanks !!!
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:14 am
by sagji
The rules don't give a specific limit - however they use the phrase "It is depicted by contracting the battle group to 2 files wide, and turning at least half the battle group's ranks to face the rear."
The implication of this is that it must start 3 or 4 files wide, and have at least 2 ranks when 2 wide - otherwise you would depict it by turning the entire BG round.
So I would say you need a minimum of 3 base.
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:19 am
by philqw78
1 base faces forwards and one backwards.
Indeed when in the zone of enemy and more than 2 bases wide it may not form orb as it is not allowed to contract.
I think this was a case of the rules writers not using 50 words when 10 would do. Turn 1 Base of a 2 base BG backwards and its in orb in my opinion. if it passes cmt to do so
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:22 pm
by DaiSho
philqw78 wrote:1 base faces forwards and one backwards.
Indeed when in the zone of enemy and more than 2 bases wide it may not form orb as it is not allowed to contract.
I think this was a case of the rules writers not using 50 words when 10 would do. Turn 1 Base of a 2 base BG backwards and its in orb in my opinion. if it passes cmt to do so
I don't have the rules on hand, but wouldn't it be pointless having a BG of 2 bases in orb? Don't you count only 1/4 of the bases fighting in all directions, in other words 1/2 a base if only 2 bases, and thus get no dice? I suppose it would round up to 1 dice!
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:47 pm
by rich0101
I think he would get 2 dice, because I don't think you can be reduced to no dice.
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:10 am
by nickandmatt
Whilst on the subject of Orb Formation, I've got two questions.
1) I assuming any spear/pike armed HF BGs can form Orb?
2) Can multiple BGs in orb still form a Battleline?
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:54 am
by sagji
philqw78 wrote:1 base faces forwards and one backwards.
Indeed when in the zone of enemy and more than 2 bases wide it may not form orb as it is not allowed to contract.
And also that if it is more than 4 wide, or less that 3 wide, it can't form orb at all.
I think this was a case of the rules writers not using 50 words when 10 would do. Turn 1 Base of a 2 base BG backwards and its in orb in my opinion. if it passes cmt to do so
Except the rules say it is depicted by
contracting to
two bases wide, and at least half the
ranks are turned to face the rear.
It doesn't say "by being 2 bases wide", or even as you appear to be assuming "by being no more than 2 bases wide"[/b]
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:09 am
by philqw78
sagji wrote:And also that if it is more than 4 wide, or less that 3 wide, it can't form orb at all.
Why can it not when more than 4 wide? It is forming orb as a CMT not Contracting.
sagi wrote:Except the rules say it is depicted by contracting to two bases wide, and at least half the ranks are turned to face the rear.
It doesn't say "by being 2 bases wide", or even as you appear to be assuming "by being no more than 2 bases wide"[/b]
So you are saying the intention was that a 2 base wide 4 deep BG cannot form orb as it does not contract?
I think we may need an erratta here.
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:40 pm
by hammy
IMO a formation that is already 2 wide can form orb and a wider formation can reduce to 2 wide and form orb.
A BG of 2 bases cannot form Orb as an orb is by definition 2 wide.
I can see the argument that a BG that starts 2 wide cannot form orb because of the use of contract in the description but IMO that is a DBMM level of literalism and it is just plain silly to say that a BG that starts 2 wide cannot go into orb.
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:00 pm
by hazelbark
learn something new everyday. I had never noticed you need to be 2 wide. So a column cannot form orb. Interesting.
I suspect i will need the Orb rules for the first time tonight as I face Mongols with protected spear.
Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:58 pm
by LambertSimnel
hammy wrote:IMO a formation that is already 2 wide can form orb and a wider formation can reduce to 2 wide and form orb.
A BG of 2 bases cannot form Orb as an orb is by definition 2 wide.
I can see the argument that a BG that starts 2 wide cannot form orb because of the use of contract in the description but IMO that is a DBMM level of literalism and it is just plain silly to say that a BG that starts 2 wide cannot go into orb.
Also, the image on p122 of the rule book shows a 2-wide BG forming orb.
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:53 am
by zeitoun
So, a BG whith less than 4 bases can't form ORB , because he can't be in two wide formation, but why a BG of 6 bases in column can't expand in two wide to form ORB ? Or turn to form an ORB ? THe contraction is only necessary when the BGH is more than 2 wides ....
And what happen if a BG whith 4 bases loose one base ? How do you reform the BG ?
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:09 am
by philqw78
hammy wrote:IMO a formation that is already 2 wide can form orb and a wider formation can reduce to 2 wide and form orb.
A BG of 2 bases cannot form Orb as an orb is by definition 2 wide.
But a BG with 2 bases can be 2 wide. 1 base faces forwards, 1 backwards. Nothing wrong with that is there?
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:56 am
by sagji
philqw78 wrote:sagji wrote:And also that if it is more than 4 wide, or less that 3 wide, it can't form orb at all.
Why can it not when more than 4 wide? It is forming orb as a CMT not Contracting.
Because the rules explicitly say "A BG can only form ORB if it starts no more than 4 files wide." (p122 end of left column)
sagi wrote:Except the rules say it is depicted by contracting to two bases wide, and at least half the ranks are turned to face the rear.
It doesn't say "by being 2 bases wide", or even as you appear to be assuming "by being no more than 2 bases wide"[/b]
So you are saying the intention was that a 2 base wide 4 deep BG cannot form orb as it does not contract?
I think we may need an erratta here.
I can't say what the intention was, but the wording used says that can't.
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:58 am
by sagji
philqw78 wrote:hammy wrote:IMO a formation that is already 2 wide can form orb and a wider formation can reduce to 2 wide and form orb.
A BG of 2 bases cannot form Orb as an orb is by definition 2 wide.
But a BG with 2 bases can be 2 wide. 1 base faces forwards, 1 backwards. Nothing wrong with that is there?
Yes - you turn at least 1/2 the ranks not at least 1/2 the bases.
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:56 am
by MCollett
sagji wrote:philqw78 wrote:hammy wrote:A BG of 2 bases cannot form Orb as an orb is by definition 2 wide.
But a BG with 2 bases can be 2 wide. 1 base faces forwards, 1 backwards. Nothing wrong with that is there?
Yes - you turn at least 1/2 the ranks not at least 1/2 the bases.
Fine. You have one rank, so you turn it; 1 is at least half of 1. It fights with 1/2 rounded up to 1 base in any direction.
Best wishes,
Matthew
Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:35 pm
by shall
All very interesting .... but suggest you all simply read the orb bit in the FAQ/ already on this forum.
Can Orb be formed in a restricted area?
Yes and no. You cannot contract in a restricted area, but you can turn. When forming Orb you contract to 2 wide if not already 2 wide. So you can form Orb in a restricted area if you are already 2 wide and do not need to contract. You cannot form Orb if wider.
Rationale: If you are already in the right formation all you are doing is turning spear points outwards, but to engage in a big contraction just in front of the enemy would be rather dangerous.
Indeed you have to contract to 2 bases to form orb.
You can't contract in an RA so need to be 2 base width already to do it, reflecting complexity thereof when near to enemy.
Outside an RA you can do it from 4 bases wide.
Si
Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:05 am
by philqw78
So, can a 2 base BG form orb? Does it have to be 2 wide? If so does it just turn 1 base to rear? What it you are 1 base wide?