Slitherine

Hi everyone

I had a game tonight where we had a query we couldn't agree upon.

I had a BG of 8 almughavars in combat 2 deep versus knights. File A and B were in direct combat; File C was fighting as overlap; and file D was not in combat. They lost a base and I thought they could lose it from the front of file A or B and feed from the back of file D. My opponents thought the feed had to be from the back of file A or B as only they faced the knights. Which was the correct interpretation?

In addition, if they couldn't feed in from file D when could they move a base across?

Thanks

Rob

The casualties must be removed from the front rank of A or B. Whoever was behind the caualty moves up to the front rank to fill the gap. this makes the most difference if the second rank of troops is different from the front rank.

As for feeding in bases page 73 second bullet " troops can thus be moved out from rear ranks that are not fighting...." So after the combat he could have pulled a stand out of D to fill in the rear gap behind A or B

Deadtorious is mostly right. See p. 116 for details.

A front rank base from file A or B must be removed, then the front rank must be filled if possible. "Non front-rank bases must be used if any are available, and can be from any part of the battlegroup."

This happens immediately when the dead base is removed. In the next maneuver phase the almughavars can try to feed bases in to the combat.

Marc

But wasn't it stated in another thread by Simon that if 2nd (or 3rd/4th for pikes) rank bases are contributing to combat, then they could only move forward but not be pulled to another part of the BG to fight?

Or was that left up to owning player choice?

Blathergut wrote:But wasn't it stated in another thread by Simon that if 2nd (or 3rd/4th for pikes) rank bases are contributing to combat, then they could only move forward but not be pulled to another part of the BG to fight?

Or was that left up to owning player choice?

IIRC this was ending having 1 file 2 deep and the other 4 deep, which was not allowed.

philqw78 wrote:

Blathergut wrote:But wasn't it stated in another thread by Simon that if 2nd (or 3rd/4th for pikes) rank bases are contributing to combat, then they could only move forward but not be pulled to another part of the BG to fight?

Or was that left up to owning player choice?

IIRC this was ending having 1 file 2 deep and the other 4 deep, which was not allowed.

The answer is at p 116 (immediately after bullet list) as already stated. After you remove a front base due to casualties, other bases are shuffle up to retain contiguity and fill vacated front rank positions. If you think about it a while, this means 2 things:

1. You can fill a front rank position with whatever base of a rear rank of your BG, even with one which give POA or dice (I mean in this case don't apply rule about feeding more bases in a melee). If you have no rear bases you must use a front rank base (this can happen if you have a BG in a single rank which fight against more enemy, because you must remove a base in contact with the enemy which inflicted more hits).
2. Your BG must end in a legal formation.

This put an end to all discussions about particular cases, like for example pikes: you cannot keep a file 4 deep to retain POA while another file goes to 2 deep, even if the files are confronting different enemies and more hits are always against one file, because you must end in a legal formation, and in a legal formation only last rank can have a different number of bases.

From the other thread:

(What it seems to say to me is that you can end out of legal formation until you move/reform.)
In response to request for author to wade in ....

Page 116

You remove a front rank base
Other bases shuffle up to retain contiguity and fill vacaged front rank positions.
All vacated close combat positions must be filled using non-front rank bases (not rear)and they can come from any part of the battlgroup, and you can and must use unegaged front rank bases thereafter to fill gaps.
You can end up out of formation with a comulsory move.


I can see how that combination can create some different interps for this particualt case - largely dirven by the 4-deep nature of pikes Indeed it is ane where I can imagien the authors differing so take this as a personal view for now ...

Your only requirement is to refill the front space with a non-front rank base of the BG. So you can fill it from the rear of the 1st column creating a 3-3 formation.
It is arguable whether this is a compulsory move or not, but the general principle was that you can be forced out of formation by something you are forced to do by the rules.
Thus I would also allow the option to fill from the short column leading to a 4-2 formation.

Thus to me both are legal and at the choice of the person losing the base.

That said I think I would prefer in a version 2.0 one day to treat the options as sequential in that you shift up first and fill the front 2 ranks with non-fighting bases, but we didn't say that. Such a rule would mean the pikes had to fight in a 4-2 formation which perhaps better reflects the detrioration of the RH pike file. Toughts on that welcome, but nothing in the current rules would insist on it as far as I can see.

Si

_________________
Simon Hall

Blathergut wrote:From the other thread:

(What it seems to say to me is that you can end out of legal formation until you move/reform.)
In response to request for author to wade in ....

Page 116

...

I don't remember this Simon's post, but anyway:

• you remove bases after impact or melee (also after shooting, but it's not the case because we are talking about BG formation in melee)
• in manoeuvre phase of both side battle group can reform (p 70)
• battle group must be in legal formation as explained at p. 23 (unless fighting in two direction)

So, because after impact or melee there is always a manoeuvre phase, even if you want to remove a base from a shorter file of a pike formation, making a 4-2 formation, before your BG fights a new melee round you encounter a manoeuvre phase and your BG must reform to a 3-3 formation.

well....didn't seem to be what was said by author...but what do i know?...seems he said you don't have to conform until you either want to in a move phase or when you go to move then you must.

This was the thread:

http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11443

marioslaz wrote:

Blathergut wrote:From the other thread:

(What it seems to say to me is that you can end out of legal formation until you move/reform.)
In response to request for author to wade in ....

Page 116

...

I don't remember this Simon's post, but anyway:

• you remove bases after impact or melee (also after shooting, but it's not the case because we are talking about BG formation in melee)
• in manoeuvre phase of both side battle group can reform (p 70)
• battle group must be in legal formation as explained at p. 23 (unless fighting in two direction)

Or any of the other exceptions apply - such as a compulsory move

[/list]
So, because after impact or melee there is always a manoeuvre phase, even if you want to remove a base from a shorter file of a pike formation, making a 4-2 formation, before your BG fights a new melee round you encounter a manoeuvre phase and your BG must reform to a 3-3 formation.

Reforming is only required if you make a move.

Most troops you would probably want to move into a 2nd rank to help fight...but with pikes that could not always be the case.So you might stay in that unusual formation until done with combat. That's what the other thread was initially about. Was good to be able to clear that up!

sagji wrote:Or any of the other exceptions apply - such as a compulsory move

I agree, but we are talking about casualties melee and until you are in a melee you cannot do compulsory move

sagji wrote:Reforming is only required if you make a move.

Why? Read again p 23 please. A BG must be in a rectangular formation and only rear rank can have fewer bases. There are 4 exceptions, but base removal is not between them. Then read Reforming at p 70. Paragraph starts saying: "If, as consequences of previous events, ..." Rules talk about events, not moves. So, if a BG is not in a normal formation due to base removal, it must reform.

Blathergut wrote:Most troops you would probably want to move into a 2nd rank to help fight...but with pikes that could not always be the case.So you might stay in that unusual formation until done with combat. That's what the other thread was initially about. Was good to be able to clear that up!

You can do whatever you want, but rules state different

am only going by what the author pointed out...maybe the thought was combat situations can put you out of permitted formation...it isn't mandatory while still fighting to observe the formation rule...only once you want to move.

Since I started the whole pike thread the end result was that yes you can be forced into the odd formation due to combat casualty removal, after combat you reform. At least that is what I recall was said, mind you given the choice I would have shifted from the 4th rank to fill the rear of a 2 deep pike unit if I could have.

Case:

Assyrian lt spear with Bow at rear in 2* 3 formation

Facing up the page, both :

SS
BB
SB

If one of the swordsmen at the front die the swordsmen at the back can replace him cant he?

Previously I have just been "shuffling up" my men in the BG applying this term directly to force the Bow at the rear of the dead swordsman to get in front. This is not the case however is it? The dot paoint specifically states that any rear rank can be used to fill this front rank position.

expendablecinc wrote: If one of the swordsmen at the front die the swordsmen at the back can replace him cant he?

Yep, any rear rank.

deadtorius wrote:Since I started the whole pike thread the end result was that yes you can be forced into the odd formation due to combat casualty removal, after combat you reform. At least that is what I recall was said, mind you given the choice I would have shifted from the 4th rank to fill the rear of a 2 deep pike unit if I could have.

I don't remember the thread you mention. Anyway, rules for me are pretty clear and a BG cannot stay in an odd formation while in melee unless it's fighting in two or more directions. If you don't agree with my conclusions, please indicate what rules can contradict my conclusions. I don't consider myself infallible, I made a lot of error in rule understanding, but without rules reference discussion is inconclusive.

philqw78 wrote:

expendablecinc wrote: If one of the swordsmen at the front die the swordsmen at the back can replace him cant he?

Yep, any rear rank.

Does the "any rear rank bases" not apply to the situation where there were no bases to shuffle forward? I thought that first the rear bases shuffle forward and then, if there were none, you'd take a base from somewhere else.

Blathergut wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

expendablecinc wrote: If one of the swordsmen at the front die the swordsmen at the back can replace him cant he?

Yep, any rear rank.

Does the "any rear rank bases" not apply to the situation where there were no bases to shuffle forward? I thought that first the rear bases shuffle forward and then, if there were none, you'd take a base from somewhere else.

Depends what you mean by "shuffle". When you "shuffle" cards, you bring cards from a long way apart in the pack next to each other.