Slitherine

Having tried to defeat, emphasis on tried, LH armies twice at Historicon I wonder what tactics other people would use/recommend against them.

For the sake of argument let's make the following assumptions:

- LH armies wins initiative, and chooses minimum terrain.
- LH army is set up to flank march 2 cavalry BGs with an FC - if you choose to fight on the side edge what do you do about a flank march on that edge?
- Assume LH army is sensibly set-up otherwise (if you have to have something more concrete assume you are fighting Ilkhanid with the four drilled Knights and minimal cavalry, mostly average LH).

So you are deploying first with some army you commonly use in a tournament, how would you deploy and what is your battle plan?

ethan wrote:Having tried to defeat, emphasis on tried, LH armies twice at Historicon I wonder what tactics other people would use/recommend against them.

For the sake of argument let's make the following assumptions:

- LH armies wins initiative, and chooses minimum terrain.
- LH army is set up to flank march 2 cavalry BGs with an FC - if you choose to fight on the side edge what do you do about a flank march on that edge?
- Assume LH army is sensibly set-up otherwise (if you have to have something more concrete assume you are fighting Ilkhanid with the four drilled Knights and minimal cavalry, mostly average LH).

So you are deploying first with some army you commonly use in a tournament, how would you deploy and what is your battle plan?

Pick an army that has the potential to go 44 elements wide with troops who are ideally all armoured or who can shoot, or (if not) are superior & protected. This is just about possible if you thin out your units and are prepared to go 1-deep across much of the table. Always take an IC as well.

Set up wall to and advance as fast as possible, accepting that you will lose your baggage and a few units as well to shooting along the way. Try to combine charges with your foot and LH to see if you can catch some of the enemy LH.

I made the mistake at least twice at Historicon of not deploying all my infantry in mass, and trying to hold a wing with my lesser light horse and a small 4-pak of bow in the principate list. Next time everything will be packed in tight. The problem is while you are chasing him across the table (in my case with Romans) his knights are going to find a corner and crash it. And finally if you deal with this and manage to chase him across the table it's unlikely you will break the steppe army, as he will squeek away and run, and will likely have enough BG's from you for a winning draw.

The Japanese do seem to meet some of Tim's requirements - 32 bases of armored infantry Bow or Bow*, 12*armored Bow Cav, 8*protected O-spear. + some others that can't stand in the front. They are medium foot as well so will get across faster. Figure if he charges with his knights he'll break through but you just push past. I'm not sure what to do about the two filler BG's (mob types) as they would be hard to protect and would be targets. And of course they have other problems, being undrilled and vulnerable to other armies in an open comp like Historicon.

It is my opinion that player skill and luck being equal, the shooty cav army would at least not lose to a combined arms army. By this I mean that a non-shootycav army designed to take on a number of different types of opposing armies in a tournament will either need massive amounts of luck and/or be commanded by a very skillful player in order to be able to break a shootycav type army in the normal tournament timeframe. The likely result is a winning draw for the shootycav army.

If I were to design an army specifically designed to tackle shooty mounted I would pick an army of drilled MF bow commanded by an IC. Drilled to have the manouverability and the option of occationally blocking evade paths, bow because for cheap long-range shooting to actually be able to kill something, and the IC to help with cohesion tests (and help in getting the terrain). Maybe with lightspear POA for some cheap combat capability. The problem with this counter-build is that it will be rolled over by everything that isn't a shooty cav army, and herein lies the strength of the shootycav build - it's a monotype army that is strong against a wide variety of opponents whereas its worst case opponent is very poor against most other armies and is therefore unlikely to show up in great numbers at a tournament.

That's not to say shootycav armies are unbeatable, but rather that their opponents simply need to play better and have more luck to win. The reason for this is that in this game fleeing in the face of chargers is 100% safe, you shoot far enough and have the option to back up 3 MU and still shoot so you will practically always be able to escape chargers. Also, in this game you never risk running out of missiles, and your radio-controlled cavalry will always stop fleeing when you want them to.

So, until someone more intelligent than me comes up with a game plan against shootycav armies that does not involve filling the table with crap troops and simply slogging forwards for 12 turns I will focus on losing as few APs as possible and hope for a draw at best.

In every game you will eventually find one type of armies that are simply better than everything else and in the case of FOG it is shooty mounted. My advice is either to get one of your own, or (like me, because I'm a masochistic idiot) resign yourself to 3.5 hours of drinking beer and failing cohesion tests.

fredrik wrote: In every game you will eventually find one type of armies that are simply better than everything else and in the case of FOG it is shooty mounted. My advice is either to get one of your own, or (like me, because I'm a masochistic idiot) resign yourself to 3.5 hours of drinking beer and failing cohesion tests.

In period the Dailami are quite good against shooty armies. Drilled, often armoured, some mouted. MF fast infantry.

There are others, but the answer is to pressure the shooty hard with speed. Understand that there will be problems but press ahead by identifying enough enemy BGs that you can break.

Insist on correct wheels. Biggest complaint I have is the "loose" manner some players take when wheeling their BGs. For the record, There are ZERO obliques in FoG!!!!

Going one deep in places

Take the IC!!! (never leave home without it again).

Armor is better than superior

Madcam.

ethan wrote:Having tried to defeat, emphasis on tried, LH armies twice at Historicon I wonder what tactics other people would use/recommend against them.

For the sake of argument let's make the following assumptions:

- LH armies wins initiative, and chooses minimum terrain.

SJ: If he takes the terrain leaving you the opens make them 80mmx120mm

- LH army is set up to flank march 2 cavalry BGs with an FC - if you choose to fight on the side edge what do you do about a flank march on that edge?

SJ: How do you know its Cav? If you have your own bow, put them there. You don't want them in the middle anyways. Keep them in Column in order for them to be fully mobile and 6.01 inches from the edge.

- Assume LH army is sensibly set-up otherwise (if you have to have something more concrete assume you are fighting Ilkhanid with the four drilled Knights and minimal cavalry, mostly average LH).

So you are deploying first with some army you commonly use in a tournament, how would you deploy and what is your battle plan?

In addition to what I wrote above in your post.....

SJ: If Ilkhanid, they don't get Steppes so you'll have lots of terrain to choose from. Since the LH are average, shoot them. Foot skirmishers with HF/MF to evade behind are perfect for this. Were the LH BGs in 4s? 2 hits then cause a test. enough tests and very soon those LHs are running away.

With my Turks, I would love this match up. I can be real aggressive with the Janissaries. I'd throw done a bunch of rough and would be to have this over quite quickly.

With the Khurasain same as above.

With a foot slogger, then its more problematic. Hopefully, I can get enough terrain to secure the flanks. I think HF armies will have more troubles than most but like Ians Gauls he took to B-ham. Enough TF to secure one flank and his BGs were huge 10-12 figs strong. It took lots of shooting for them to even have to take a test and with rear support and an IC, he rarely failed a test. BGs of 8, even superior are not strong enough to avoid the occasional rough patch of dice.

He had enough foot skirmishers to screen off LH shooters. Knights can be tricky, but with only four, not enough to really threaten everywhere.

Madcam.

madcam2us wrote:Insist on correct wheels. Biggest complaint I have is the "loose" manner some players take when wheeling their BGs. For the record, There are ZERO obliques in FoG!!!!

Unless you need to shift as part of the move

Actually this is good advice (useful when facing swarm armies as well BTW) as is remembering that if troops turn 90 degress they can only make a simple advance which is 1 wheel only.#

The only caveat I'd have here is not to be too anal about it with troops who are miles away from each other as that just slows things up.

Going one deep in places

An oft overlooked tactic - especially for Armoured/Heavily Armoured types. I've used it successfully with (drilled) longbowmen as well when supported by an IC.

I still contend that a light horse army is better off with some terrain rather than none when it comes to facing a large infantry force. The light horse are slippery enough that they can avoid most terrain anyway. Difficult going on the other hand significantly slows advancing troops that might push the LH out of the way.

One of the things I really like about FoG is that foot bow are a very good counter to light horse, just like they were historically. Having some MF bow is generally a good thing against light horse.

hammy wrote:One of the things I really like about FoG is that foot bow are a very good counter to light horse, just like they were historically. Having some MF bow is generally a good thing against light horse.

Or even the much-maligned MF crossbowmen.

I am seriously looking at the Imperial German list from Oath of Fealty as a good all round and anti-shooty-cavalry army: Lots of armoured spearmen, lots of MF crossbowmen and some tasty knights.

hammy wrote:I still contend that a light horse army is better off with some terrain rather than none when it comes to facing a large infantry force. The light horse are slippery enough that they can avoid most terrain anyway. Difficult going on the other hand significantly slows advancing troops that might push the LH out of the way.

One of the things I really like about FoG is that foot bow are a very good counter to light horse, just like they were historically. Having some MF bow is generally a good thing against light horse.

Have to agree with that, I used a LH heavy Parthian army (my Ilkhanids hadn't arived) against an Indian army and found that choosing terrain was beneficial rather than a hinderance. It broke up his battle line allowing the Lh to manouvre into more benficial positions than if it had been a clear battlefield and he could've deployed in a single line.

So the advice is:

The best tactic to kill a LH army is to choose an army that has lots of troops that can kill LH.

Problem solved.

lawrenceg wrote:So the advice is:

The best tactic to kill a LH army is to choose an army that has lots of troops that can kill LH.

Problem solved.

Sure, that is easy - but not the way tournaments work. My initial question is more around "you have X army at a tournament" how do you plan to fight this battle?

ethan wrote:

lawrenceg wrote:So the advice is:

The best tactic to kill a LH army is to choose an army that has lots of troops that can kill LH.

Problem solved.

Sure, that is easy - but not the way tournaments work. My initial question is more around "you have X army at a tournament" how do you plan to fight this battle?

Something that might be worth considering in the "take an anti-lh army" category is light chariots. Some (few) of the Swifter Than Eagles armies are suitable for an open event.

Marc

My initial question is more around "you have X army at a tournament" how do you plan to fight this battle?

Well what do you want people to do - Guess which army it is? In which case Dom Rom's - they can give LH a real pasting.

Or any army that has lots of Drilled Armoured MF... Or any army that has better light horse.

Easy really.

dave_r wrote:

My initial question is more around "you have X army at a tournament" how do you plan to fight this battle?

Well what do you want people to do - Guess which army it is? In which case Dom Rom's - they can give LH a real pasting.

Or any army that has lots of Drilled Armoured MF... Or any army that has better light horse.

Easy really.

I was thinking more along the line of "last tournament I ran Easter Elbonians" and here is what I would do in that circumstance...Really I was just fishing for thoughts people might have had. Let's say you had Dom Roms, WotR, Ottomans, whatever you might have run last tournament you were in...

Lots of armoured lancers. Charge everything in reach. Drink beer first.

I've used early Persians, with the armoured hoplites and armoured immortals a lot now against mounted shooty things. If i want to play safe, I'll turn the table with the immortals on the outside of the wheel. The mounted can't go near them. It does tend to a draw though, or a loss when you cock it up

The problem I find with going one deep is wheeling is then a very slow process. I've never really got the army up to 'fill the table' width so haven't been able to shove the horsey boys off the table, and the protected archers can get shot up badly.

Ethan,

To get back to the question you asked . . .

I don't have any special insights on defeating a shooty army. In my experinece I'd have to say it depends on the army you run, and some armies just aren't going to be able to beat those guys. Take my Florentine Condotta, for instance. There aren't enough quality troop types in large enough BGs to have any hope of running a shooty LH army off the table. Just aint going to happen. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but all I can think to do is dismount, laager up, and hope for the best. I always run an IC and always try to provide for rear support. I am not able to avoid taking the CTs, so I try and maximize my chances of passing them. After that, its really just a question of luck. Roll lots of 6s and I "win", roll a lot of 2s (my usual tactic) and I lose.

Not a very exciting game (if you're lucky), but I believe settling for a draw (winning or losing) is about the best I can hope for. By the way, I haven't actually managed a draw yet - to date I have always been crushed; sometimes quickly, and sometimes slowly and painfully. Picking a "better" army certainly is good advice and could help; but I am dedicated to my Florentines and love them win or lose.

If you can, FFs will help too. And roll more 6s.

hammy wrote:I still contend that a light horse army is better off with some terrain rather than none when it comes to facing a large infantry force. The light horse are slippery enough that they can avoid most terrain anyway. Difficult going on the other hand significantly slows advancing troops that might push the LH out of the way.

Especially uneven which is horrible for HF.
But even rough drop that 4 stand BG of LH or CV and get back 1 MU and move through. Even small unites of LF really don't want to fight in this stuff unless they need to get lucky or sacrifice themselves to slow someone down. Of course a column only needs 1 hit to test.