Slitherine

I finished working on my mod, "Japanese Invasions of Joseon (Imjin War Skirmish Redux)". As the name implies, it is a rework of the base game's "Imjin War" module, and only available for skirmish. I am open to any suggestions or feedback (especially since I only playtested this against AI).

Special thanks to @rbodleyscott for clarifications and help + a shoutout now that I realize he is one of the authors of the original FOG tabletop manuals/army lists.

I initially made it for myself as a hobby since the Imjin War is a topic I've been interested in for a long time, and I may have read up too much on its books and primary sources in the past few years. Since the game and the source materials' (Hawleys etc.) release, a number of people have pointed out over the years some of its problems with the way these armies have been depicted, such as Joseon 50 ranged/50 Heavy Weapon foot performing rather too well in the impact/melee compared to its historical counterparts.

The basic overview (at least what I intended) for the three army lists is the following:

Japanese Invasion Force:
+Strong, versatile foot-based army for all terrain types.
+Ranged Medium Foot has good impact/melee capabilities. Light Foots all have 50 swordsman capability.
-The smallest number of cavalry.

Ming Expeditionary Force:
+Largest, strongest cavalry units with ranged (50 Bow/50 Handgun) and impact (50 light lance) capabilities.
+Capable foot units in both ranged, impact, and melee phases. The only army to contain medium and heavy artillery.
-Expensive. The smallest number of Light Foots and Foot units generally have fewer bases (6 vs 8 bases)

Joseon:
+Largest number of light foot/light horse. "Best" light foot in the mod.
+Every mounted and foot units have ranged capabilities.
-Subpar impact/melee capabilities, which improve marginally in later lists (Sogo Reforms).

The full army list containing units + my commentaries/ramblings on design choices are on my new blog: https://substack.com/home/post/p-148006 ... medium=web

Once I have time + more knowledge on scenario designs and such, I am planning on further updates, I currently have historical battles in mind, and maybe some unit icons and sound design once I figure out how they work.

Cheers.

This is great! Very impressive work

A few suggestions after glancing the lists:

- Maybe the Mandarin Duck should be reduced to Some Armor. I understand your rationale to compute somehow the Lang Xian and shieldbearers, but by the Imjin War the southern infantry would have been unarmored or donned relatively light armors. A level of some armor (on par with Ashigaru) might be fairer.

- The Tribals should probably remain as impact foot/swordsmen like in the base game. I know that they used an assortment of weapons, from individuals with Yan Wei Pai and sabers to many men armed with Gou Lian Dao, other polearms, or even spears, but the design phylosophy of the series is top down. Doctrinally, the sources reflect that the tribal auxiliaries of the Ming fought in agressive formations (sometimes wedges even) and favored an agressive charge. IF/SW represents that just fine, with a powerful onset but later being weaker in a prolonged melee against more disciplined forces of spearmen.

- Maybe the last Ming list should have at least one unit of light artillery? In the first siege of Ulsan the allied forces left behind the siege guns but still had lighter pieces with which they bombarded Ulsan proper as the siege dragged on. They could be abstracted into the regimental guns, but I don't know.

Changdao wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2024 9:07 am

Thank you for your feedback! I will certainly keep your feedback on the Mandarin Ducks and "Tribal Warriors". Mandarin Duck was certainly one of the trickier units to fine-tune since I wanted it to be a strong, reliable unit somewhere between Yari Sonae and Foot Samurai, but felt that in the backdrop of a rather good Ming army (imo), if they were too "weak" to the point that they were barely beating Yari Sonae, it would make more sense to go with other cost-effective alternatives. A little too strong to the point that Foot Samurai are barely beating them, then the Japanese army list may need to be buffed and I am currently mostly comfortable with where they are at right now. Initially, I had given the Ducks armor rating of 75, but increased it to 100 to avoid confusion when I realized that SJIDAI didn't make specific distinctions like "lightly protected"/"protected"/"some armor" as FOG2 does. Something to keep on fine-tuning for the next update.

Regarding light artillery for Ming, my intention was to abstract them into RGs, despite the fact that Japan/Joseon army lists have separate light artillery units. Admittedly, this design choice was more so because I didn't like how the Ming AI handled them, considering that the rest of their units are rather pricey and fewer in this mod (yes, they are AI, but I felt they got more mileage out of having one or two extra units). But still, something else to consider for the next update, maybe for RG/Light Artillery or shooting/movement scripts.

The point about the AI regarding light artillery is fair. It's true that AI tends to use light artillery rather bizarrely, and spending points on them hurts their otherwise spendy list. It would not be an issue in multiplayer though!

I have been testing the mod and another thing I would suggest is changing the Dismounted Kuijia Qibing to Above Average. Right now they are the strongest infantry unit in the mod, because they are even with Foot Samurai in melee and impact but also have additional firepower. I'm not sure this feels totally right? After all, they are dismounted cavalrymen fighting on foot ad-hoc (though they did it frequently and were prepared for it, at least in the Imjin war) instead of a proper infantry formation. Above Average quality would allow them to still be competitive over basic infantry but slightly lose out to Foot Samurai in POA and in passing cohesion checks.

Otherwise, I think the mod is truly phenomenal. It captures the spirit of the Ming and Japanese armies in the war very well. The Jiading being top dog on the battlefield is totally correct, as these were mostly the seasoned Mongol retainers of the Li clan, as well as the Ming cavalry in general being the best and able to trounce unsupported foot formations. I like how the Japanese list is structured (though maybe the teppo ashigaru should mostly be matchlock? I vaguely remember that the sources rarely mention Japanese archers but continously reference matchlockmen. Also, the daimyo in Korea were constantly and almost desperately requesting more and more matchlocks from home, so maybe the teppo-heavy units could be reserved for the 1597-1598 list)

I haven't tested the Koreans yet, but the lists seem fine.

Changdao wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2024 2:16 pm

You are right. I did overlook how strong Dmted Kuijia Qibing is. Originally, I had made the Ming's dismounted cav units 4 bases to make their numbers "match" their mounted counterparts. Aside from the fact that I couldn't figure out how to make the unit texture/size smaller, the 333-man units in a mod with ranged light foots just made them absolutely useless and a waste of space, which is why I just increased them to 6 bases and left them at that.

It is a work in progress as expected, but there are lots of things to tweak and balance out. One especially being any ranged mixed units containing bows also gets their "shooting overhead" mechanic. I was testing out the mod with 4-ranged arquebus capability and realized this when lines of Joseon Sogobyeong started ripping apart my Japanese army.

Thanks again for your feedback.

UPDATE v.1.01.00 (August 28th, 2024)
Army list balance changes (cost tweaks, new units, etc) + script changes/bug fixes + One Historical Battle + changed title removing "Skirmish"

HISTORICAL BATTLE ADDED:
BATTLE OF CHUNGJU (TANGEUMDAE) – Singleplayer Joseon Scenario

Out of a number of interpretations of this battle and the decision-making of the Korean commanders, this scenario takes the view that General Shin Rip did not anticipate the Japanese to cross Choryong pass, much less the speed to which they did, resulting in him being forced into battle on a ground that he never intended to fight on. There is only one scenario for Joseon’s side, and thus, cannot be played on MP. More will be added in future updates.

ARMY LIST CHANGES:
MING:
-Reduced armor and cost for "Yuanyang Zhen (Mandarin Duck Formation)" – Armored (100) to Some Armor (50) + Cost reduced to 36 from 42.
-Reworked "Tribal Warriors" – Warriors, Unprotected (0), Below Average (75), Impact Foot (100), Swordsman (100) + Cost remains the same at 40 at 8 bases.
-Removed Swordsman capability for "Chongbing."
-Slightly increased the number of "Qibing (Light)".
-Increased "Qibing" quality to Above Average (150) from Average (100).
-Reduced "Dismounted Kuijia Qibing" quality to Above Average (150) from Superior (200), cost reduced to 44 from 53.
-Changed point calculation for 50 Bow in "Kuijia Qibing" and "Qibing" changed from "Bow" to "Bow*" as defined in FOG:R - Reduced to 1 per base (Bow*) from 2 per base (Bow).
-Overall cost changes: "Jiading" (78 vs 81), "Kuijia Qibing" (60 vs 62), and "Qibing" (44 vs 42)
-Re-added base game light artillery “Hu Dun Pao (Crouching Tiger Cannon)” for Jeongyu War list.

JOSEON:
-Reduced the number of Cavalry, Light Horse, and Light Foot units in several Joseon army lists.
-Removed Swordsman capability for "Chongtongbyeong".
-Reduced the quality of "Bukgwan Gibyeong (Light)" from Superior (200) to Above Average (150).
-New Unit - "Uibyeong (Late)" – Medium Foot, Unprotected (0), Raw (50), Bow (84), Light Spear (16), Cost (24) - replaces "Uibyeong (Irregular)" starting from Armistice list. These are supposed to depict RIghteous Armies that were not disbanded and integrated into the Joseon army for the duration of the war.

JAPAN:
-Slightly increased the number of Light Foot units.
-New Unit - "Teppō Sonae" - Medium Foot, Some Armor (50), Average (100), Arquebus (67), Light Spear (33), Swordsman (60), Cost (39) - appears from the Armistice list and replaces "Teppō/Yumi Sonae" at the Jeongyu War list. Japanese army placed a greater emphasis on matchlocks as the war went on.

BUG FIX/SCRIPT CHANGES:
-All non-missile foot can now charge mounted (Just Yari Sonae from this change).
-Increased range of Arquebus to 4 from 3.
-Increased reduced effectiveness of "Arquebus," "Bow," and "Handgun" on long-range to "3" (~66%) from "2" (50%).
-Fixed overhead shooting bug when "Arquebus," "Handgun," and "Sling" are mixed in with "Bow".

Ramblings: https://open.substack.com/pub/magpiegam ... medium=web

This looks great! Keep up the good work.

I saw that you changed the Ming Tribal auxiliary quality to Below Average, and I think that makes it even more historical. These would have been Sichuanese auxiliaries commanded by Liu Ting, who was a veteran commander of Southwest China. However, he feuded with the admiral Chen Lin and wasn't very motivated to perform, so his units fought half-heartedly. Below Average would represent that, due to leadership issues, these troops were not on peak shape, and indeed they didn't do a particularly spectacular job at the siege of Suncheon

Just for curiosity, what historical battles do you plan to include?

baconator wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 4:04 pm

Excellent work! The piles of redundant separate armament units were a long peeve of mine with the vanilla game. These lists feel much more realistic. Excited to see how you build on this.

Changdao wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:39 pm Just for curiosity, what historical battles do you plan to include?

The current list I have on hand at the moment is the following, some will be only player for one side while the rest will be playable for both sides:

Imjin War Phase:

• Battle of Imjin River: open battle between Joseon and Japan like in the base game but with the mod army list

• Battle of Ichi: a defensive battle fought by Joseon near Jeonju during Japan's July/August 1592 offensive into Jeolla province

• 4th Siege of Pyongyang (Moranbong Mountain): one part of the siege when Ming forces supported by Joseon monks fought to drive out the Japanese at Moranbong Mountain - base game Siege of Pyongyang covers the phase after Moranbong Mountain was taken and Ming repositioned their artillery - probably going to be Ming only scenario

• Battle of Gilju (edit, changed mistake from "Gwiju", which is a completely different battle from Liao-Goryeo War): a name for one engagement between Kato Kiyomasa and Hamgyeong province's "Righteous Army" led by Jeong Mun-bu - a Japan-only scenario where they have to break a Korean siege and rescue its garrison at Gwiju.

• Battle of Byeokjegwan: like base-game only with the mod army list. Ming will probably be full of cav/dismounted cav with no artillery.

Jeongyu War Phase:

• Siege of Hwangseok Mountain Fortress: a Joseon defensive battle against Kato Kiyomasa in a mountain fortress. Fyi, Korean mountain fortresses are pretty large, so I am thinking of making this battle pretty chaotic as Japanese troops pour through weaker gaps and Korean forces scatter and take up different defensive positions.

• Battle of Jiksan: like base-game only with the mod army list.

• 1st Siege of Ulsan: not sure how this will look yet and whose side the player should be on.

I have things like the Battle of Haengju and others in mind, too, but I feel like these may feel repetitive to some of the scenarios I am already planning on covering.

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:53 pm

Thank you, I certainly hope you've enjoyed it! I've enjoyed your EastvsWest mod too! Once I am done with the Imjin War and have a good base on this whole modding thing, I have plans to gradually build it up to the Byeongja Horan campaign. In case I haven't made it clear, I am more of a Korean history buff, so I will not be touching the conflicts within Ming/Japan respectively, but there were many skirmishes/campaigns against the Jurchens alongside the Ming prior to those invasions (even prior to the disastrous Battle of Sarhu) that can be covered + a major rebellion in 1624. Fingers crossed.

So happy to hear your work and Look forward to it.

No offense intended, I am Chinese. As far as I know, the Imjin War, also known in Chinese history as the Wanli Joseon War (Wanli, named after the reign title of the Ming Emperor), was a war where the Ming Dynasty aided its vassal state Joseon against the Japanese. In this war, the main battles were fought between the Ming army and the Japanese army, while the Joseon army played more of an auxiliary role.

I looked at the army list on your blog and noticed that it mentions the artillery and gun units of the Ming army, but the information is not detailed enough. In fact, the Ming army placed great emphasis on firearms and was equipped with a large number of them.

The firearms of the time can be roughly divided into three categories: tube-shaped firearms (guns and cannons), incendiary weapons, and explosive weapons.

Tube-shaped weapons primarily refer to guns, including homemade "sanyanchong" (三眼铳, three-barreled guns), "hudunpao" (虎蹲炮, small cannon), as well as Western-imported "niaochong" (鸟铳, matchlock muskets) and "folangji" (佛朗机, cannon).

Incendiary weapons refer to fire arrow(火箭) or rocket arrows.

Explosive weapons refer to landmines, but not playing important role.

I would really appreciate it if you could provide more detailed firearm units. That would be great.

Thank you for your time and feedback!

Xavier Joy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 2:07 pm In this war, the main battles were fought between the Ming army and the Japanese army, while the Joseon army played more of an auxiliary role.

There is no doubt that from contemporary records of Korean, Chinese, and Japanese sources, it was the Ming who took the role as the predominant military and political force over Joseon, naturally, in the context of their tributary relations.

When you say that the "main battles" were fought by the Ming, and the Joseon army played more of an "auxiliary role", I do agree generally. Joseon government and forces, while not unconfident in the prospect of killing the Japanese and winning battles, understood that only the Ming had a real chance of facing them in a decisive battle/siege that would drive them out. Still, I would not completely discount the role of the Joseon forces that would discredit them from having an army list.

I cannot confidently comment on contemporary Chinese sources, nor how modern Chinese historical memory remembers this war, so please keep that in mind, but I think it must be remembered that the war, especially during the Imjin War phase, was being fought everywhere in the peninsula. Records from the Joseon Veritable Records, postwar diaries, memoirs, and official missives that were preserved (and preserved letters from Japan, such as ones by the Mori family) indicate that Joseon and Japanese forces continually contested and fought in small-scale battles/sieges around the Yeongnam Road (the main road from Port Busan to the Joseon capital). Joseon forces, having learned harsh lessons and better organized, were gradually retaking settlements and squeezing what strategic depth the Japanese had created for their supply lines starting from early autumn of 1592. It is clear that there was a genuine belief (and it does not seem completely unfounded based on my own research) that there was a chance that they could drive them out of modern-day Gimcheon, and completely cut off the Japanese in the north from escaping. If you are wondering how Ryu Seong-ryong, despite the conditions on the ground, was nagging Li Rusong to no end for the Ming army to continue pushing south, it was likely due to such reports the government received from the south. This, of course, also doesn't mention how northern forces also fought their own battles in Hwanghae and Hamgyeong provinces, but since that is in present-day North Korea, I never got my hands on them rather than knowing of their existence. During the armistice, due to famine and the need to rebuild the devastated countryside, Joseon relied on the Ming to garrison for security, but since they were also there to guarantee the ongoing peace talks, it was generally welcomed, despite the misconduct of some of the Ming troops. The Ming army certainly played a bigger role during the Jeongyu War, but Joseon forces, too were fending off the Japanese in mountain fortresses, managed to stop a half-hearted attempted advance into northern Gyeongsang, and conducted counterattacks of their own in southern Jeolla.

Personally, I think the Joseon army list I created is still too strong for my taste. It must remain a work in progress.

Xavier Joy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 2:07 pm I looked at the army list on your blog and noticed that it mentions the artillery and gun units of the Ming army, but the information is not detailed enough. In fact, the Ming army placed great emphasis on firearms and was equipped with a large number of them.

The firearms of the time can be roughly divided into three categories: tube-shaped firearms (guns and cannons), incendiary weapons, and explosive weapons.

I would really appreciate it if you could provide more detailed firearm units. That would be great.

Speaking of work in progress, as I may have indicated, I have limited knowledge of Ming's military organization compared to Joseon around this time. I am not even really satisfied that I didn't know what to call Ming's main ranged foot unit other than "Bubing (RG)", which I presume is the source of your feedback.

I made them as "Arquebus" and "Bow" + Regimental Guns. I intended "Arquebus" to just be the whole mixture of the variety of firearms the Ming used, with the "Bow" including crossbows. I also thought Regimental Guns would reflect light artillery and rockets sufficiently too.

Maybe I should increase the number of "Chongbing" (Arquebus Light Foot) and give them regimental guns so that the Ming army list becomes a lot louder. Idk, more to continue thinking about.

If you don't mind answering, it is my understanding that bows/crossbows were used by the Ming, but how really prevalent was it actually during this war?

Funnily enough, the Koreans fought much more pitched batles than the Chinese, for various constraints and circumstances. I'd say they deserve a list, because they fielded armies, some of them on their own and some as allied contingents to Chinese forces.

Even if the naming is odd (I can't personally answer that question), I believe that the firepower the Ming list has is about right. The light guns abstract light artillery like folangji and various rockets, indeed, or at least that is the philosophy in the main game.

Bows were very extended among Ming forces in the war due to the high numbers of Liaodong cavalrymen whose main ranged weapon was the bow, even if they used handguns and carried rockets and other armament. They were also significative in the naval contingents that fought at the end of the war, if Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou's writing is followed (and what we know of the fleet seems to reflect the reality born of the pacification of the wokou and not the slightly later multidecked warjunk fleets of the maritime frontier of Fujian and Guangdong). They would have been rarer amongst the infantry, especially that coming from Zhejiang. Of course, dismounted cavalry used their bows.

Crossbows would have been much rarer, but they likely had a notable presence amongst Liu Ting's Sichuanese contingent plus the tribal auxiliaries that were sent for the second invasion. Probably they were used in the fleet as well.

I've seen the interaction a few times, and I was suspicious. Now I have confirmed it. The mixed Spearmen/HW units are overperforming, as the Spearmen PoA don't go away when the unit is in forests, being only moderately disordered as a HW unit would be. This means that samurai and Yuan Yang Zhen can just happily murder any infantry hiding in a forest.

Changdao wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 5:37 pm I've seen the interaction a few times, and I was suspicious. Now I have confirmed it. The mixed Spearmen/HW units are overperforming, as the Spearmen PoA don't go away when the unit is in forests, being only moderately disordered as a HW unit would be. This means that samurai and Yuan Yang Zhen can just happily murder any infantry hiding in a forest.

Ay, that definitely shouldn't be happening. If I remember correctly, the base campaign had spear POA reduced to 25. The code for that must be messed up when it is 75 spears or something. Thanks for letting me know.

baconator wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:14 pm Speaking of work in progress, as I may have indicated, I have limited knowledge of Ming's military organization compared to Joseon around this time. I am not even really satisfied that I didn't know what to call Ming's main ranged foot unit other than "Bubing (RG)", which I presume is the source of your feedback.

I made them as "Arquebus" and "Bow" + Regimental Guns. I intended "Arquebus" to just be the whole mixture of the variety of firearms the Ming used, with the "Bow" including crossbows. I also thought Regimental Guns would reflect light artillery and rockets sufficiently too.

Maybe I should increase the number of "Chongbing" (Arquebus Light Foot) and give them regimental guns so that the Ming army list becomes a lot louder. Idk, more to continue thinking about.

If you don't mind answering, it is my understanding that bows/crossbows were used by the Ming, but how really prevalent was it actually during this war?

Thank you for your reply！

I can provide some information on the Ming military for your reference. The following are from Qi Jiguang（戚繼光）'s "New Book of Military Achievements" (績效新書) and "Training Records" (練兵紀實).

In 1586, the Ming government assigned Qi Jiguang to defend Jizhou. After arriving, to resist the harassment of nomadic tribes like the Tatars(鞑靼), Qi Jiguang conducted large-scale military training in Jizhou.
He established a wagon corps (車營), supplemented by a cavalry corps (馬營) and an infantry corps (步營) for combined training. Additionally, he set up a supply corps (輜重營) to ensure the army's provisions.
Three squads formed a qi (旗, "banner"), three banners a ju (局, "battalion"), four battalions a si (司, "division"), two divisions a bu (部, "brigade"), and three brigades formed a ying (營, "corp"), totaling 2,700 men.

The cavalry corps, or Qi Jiguang’s cavalry, primarily assisted the wagon corps in combat. They were usually protected by the wagons, but in emergencies, they could act as surprise troops to flank and harass the enemy. The unit structure was as follows:
Cavalry: 12 soldiers per squad, including 2 niaochongshou (鳥銃手, "arquebusiers"), 2 kuaijiangshou (快槍手, "fast gunners"), 2 bazishou (把子手, "shield bearers"), 2 qianggungshou (槍棍手, "spearmen"), 2 dabangshou (大棒手, "club bearers"), and 1 huopaoshou (火炮手, "artilleryman"), with a squad leader.
Among them were 432 niaochongshou (鳥銃手, "arquebusiers"), 432 kuaijiangshou (快槍手, "fast gunners"), and 180 huopaoshou (炮手, "artillerymen"), with 60 hudunpao (虎蹲炮, "Tiger crouching cannons") and three artillerymen per cannon, totaling 1,044 firearm soldiers. Adding rocket soldiers, firearm troops accounted for about half of the cavalry corps.
The firearms and weapons of each cavalry camp included:
60 hudunpao (虎蹲炮, "Tiger crouching cannons"), 900 huoxian (火線, "fuses"), 180 huosheng (火繩, "wicks"), 900 jin of huoyao (火藥, "gunpowder"), 54,000 daqianzi (大鉛子, "lead bullets"), 1,800 shizi (石子, "stones"), and 60 each of yaoxianhe (藥線盒, "fuse boxes"), musongzi (木送子, "wooden chargers"), and yaosheng (藥升, "powder measures").
432 niaochong (鳥銃, "arquebuses"), 12,960 yaoguan (藥管, "powder tubes"), 2,592 jin of huoyao (火藥, "gunpowder"), 2,160 huosheng (火繩, "fuses"), 129,600 qianzi (鉛子, "lead bullets"), and 432 of each: shuangzhang (槊杖, "spears"), yaoqian (藥簽, "powder sticks"), tiezhui (鐵錐, "iron chisels"), qianzidai (鉛子袋, "bullet bags"), and younang (油囊, "oil pouches").
432 kuaijiang (快槍, "fast guns"), 432 of each: shuangzhang (槊杖, "spears"), yaodai (藥袋, "powder bags"), yaoxianjian (藥線簡, "powder tubes"), qianzidai (鉛子袋, "lead bullet bags"), and tieqian (鐵剪, "iron scissors"), 12,960 yaoguan (藥管, "powder tubes"), 4,500 jin of huoyao (火藥, "gunpowder"), 129,600 qianzi (鉛子, "lead bullets"), and 216,000 yaoxian (藥線, "fuses").
Because the cavalry corps was heavily equipped with firearms, especially the light and high-performance hudunpao (虎蹲炮, "Tiger crouching cannons"), their rapid assault capability was greatly enhanced, significantly boosting their combat effectiveness.

The infantry (步兵) of the Ming Dynasty was also equipped with a certain number of firearms. Infantry that supported the wagon corps could both use the wagons for cover and counterattack to protect the wagons. The unit structure was:
Infantry: 12 soldiers per squad, with each firearm squad having a squad leader, 10 niaochongshou (鳥銃手, "arquebusiers"), and 1 fire soldier (火兵). In addition to soldiers using cold weapons, each assault squad also had 1 fire soldier (火兵).
Three squads formed a qi (旗, "banner"), three banners a ju (局, "battalion"), four battalions a si (司, "division"), two divisions a bu (部, "brigade"), and three brigades formed a ying (營, "camp"), totaling 2,700 men. Of these, 1,800 were niaochongshou (鳥銃手, "arquebusiers"), and with rocket soldiers included, firearm troops made up about half of the total.
The firearms in each infantry camp included 1,800 niaochong (鳥銃, "arquebuses"), shuangzhang (槊杖, "spears"), xijian (錫鑑, "shields"), qianzidai (鉛子袋, "lead bullet bags"), 33,400 yaoguan (藥管, "powder tubes"), 4,320 jin of huoyao (火藥, "gunpowder"), 216,000 qianzi (鉛子, "lead bullets"), 3,240 huosheng (火繩, "fuses"), and 12 qianzimou (鉛子模, "bullet molds").
From the equipment of Qi Jiguang’s infantry corps, we can see that the main firearms were niaochong (鳥銃, "arquebuses") and huojian (火箭, "rockets"), while cold weapons included changdao (長刀, "long knives"), changqiang (長槍, "spears"), and gongjian (弓箭, "bows and arrows"). This combination of firearms and cold weapons, along with both long-range and close-combat weaponry, formed a highly effective combat formation.

The supply corps (輜重營): To provide food, tools, and other supplies for the wagon, infantry, and cavalry units, Qi Jiguang established three supply bases in Miyun (密雲), Zunhua (遵化), and Jianchang (建昌). The organization was:
Each supply base had 80 large wagons (大車), with 8 mules per wagon and 20 soldiers, divided into regular and special squads. The regular squad had 10 soldiers: 8 responsible for mule care, wagon pulling, and handling folangji (佛郎機, "Frangipani cannons") and clubs (大棒), along with 1 chezheng (車正, "wagon officer") and 1 duogong (舵工, "helmsman"). The special squad had 1 leader, 8 niaochongshou (鳥銃手, "arquebusiers") (who also trained with changdao (長刀, "long knives"), tengpai (藤牌, "rattan shields"), duandao (短刀, "short knives"), and tangba (鐺鈀, "halberds")), and 1 fire soldier (火兵).
Including officers, central troops, battalion leaders, native soldiers, and other personnel, the camp totaled 1,912 men, with 640 niaochongshou (鳥銃手, "arquebusiers") and 480 folangji operators (佛郎機手), making up 58% of the total camp strength.
The firearms and weapons of each supply corps included 160 folangji (佛郎機, "Frangipani cannons"), 1,840 niaochong (鳥銃, "arquebuses"), 3,200 jin of huoyao (火藥, "gunpowder"), 16,000 qianzi (鉛子, "lead bullets"), 800 huosheng (火繩, "fuses"), 640 niaochong (鳥銃, "arquebuses"), 19,200 yaoguan (藥管, "powder tubes"), 3,840 jin of huoyao (火藥, "gunpowder"), 192,000 qianzi (鉛子, "lead bullets"), and 3,200 huosheng (火繩, "fuses").

From this, we can see that Qi Jiguang’s supply corps was mainly equipped with firearms, with both long-range heavy folangji (佛郎機炮, "Frangipani cannons") and close-range light niaochong (鳥銃, "arquebuses"), ensuring they were fully armed to complete their transportation tasks.

The above aspects do not provide a complete picture of the Ming army's firearm equipment, but they do show that the Ming army was indeed widely and heavily equipped with firearms.

As for the bows and bows and crossbows (弓弩), their importance was significantly reduced. This is one of the reasons why I emphasize that you should focus more on the Ming army's firearm units.

In the early Qing Dynasty historical document, Veritable records of the Manchus (滿洲實錄), there are several illustrations depicting the Battle of Sarhu (see the images below). Unlike the Manchu cavalry on the left, who are heavily equipped with bows, the Ming field army on the right is primarily armed with firearms.

Xavier Joy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 12:30 am Thank you for your reply！

I can provide some information on the Ming military for your reference. The following are from Qi Jiguang（戚繼光）'s "New Book of Military Achievements" (績效新書) and "Training Records" (練兵紀實).
...
The above aspects do not provide a complete picture of the Ming army's firearm equipment, but they do show that the Ming army was indeed widely and heavily equipped with firearms.

As for the bows and bows and crossbows (弓弩), their importance was significantly reduced. This is one of the reasons why I emphasize that you should focus more on the Ming army's firearm units.

Grateful for your time and enormous responses here. It appears the current army list may better reflect the earlier Ming Army than the period that is being covered. I would have to look over and start comparing it to the contemporary European army lists from FOG:R and see if I could get some ideas for the rework.

But I do have two further questions if you don't mind engaging:

(1) I could certainly change the current iteration of Jiading and superior "Kuijia Qibing" to replace "Bow" with "Carbine," + And I think the whole portion of troops who are essentially mounted gunners/light cannoneers can be depicted with some manner of "Dragoon" with RGs. However, I am still leaning on the side of keeping the regular "Qibing" to keep their "Bow*" both for the sake of cost and reflecting on Korean sources mentioning a significant presence of foreign cavalrymen such as the Mongols/Khorchins. Did the Ming arm such foreigners to the same standards mentioned in your sources? How successful were they if they did try?

(2) And I suppose this leads to the second part regarding Qi Jiguang. This is Qi Jiguang we are talking about; were subsequent Ming generals/military establishments able to maintain the same diligence and organization in order to keep such formations so heavily equipped with firearms, primarily "niaochong"s in this case? I do suspect the Ming military is the victim of pop culture history + its history undergoing serious crises (Tumu crisis) and collapsing to the Shun and Qing (perhaps much like the entire Korean historical memory of Joseon society in a way), but would it be safe to assume that the forces from places such as Liaodong did not completely reflect the trend of Ming military's degradation?

Thank you again.

baconator wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 2:59 pm (1) Did the Ming arm such foreigners to the same standards mentioned in your sources? How successful were they if they did try?

The answer is clearly no. As far as I know, the foreign troops that participated in the Ming army's resistance against the Manchus, including those from Korea and Mongolia, were only nominally under Ming control. The specific organization, armament, and command of these units were handled by the foreign forces themselves.

baconator wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 2:59 pm (2) And I suppose this leads to the second part regarding Qi Jiguang. This is Qi Jiguang we are talking about; were subsequent Ming generals/military establishments able to maintain the same diligence and organization in order to keep such formations so heavily equipped with firearms, primarily "niaochong"s in this case? I do suspect the Ming military is the victim of pop culture history + its history undergoing serious crises (Tumu crisis) and collapsing to the Shun and Qing (perhaps much like the entire Korean historical memory of Joseon society in a way), but would it be safe to assume that the forces from places such as Liaodong did not completely reflect the trend of Ming military's degradation?

During the Ming Dynasty, the development and application of firearms underwent significant changes, with their proportion in the military gradually increasing, becoming one of the key weapon systems. We can observe the gradual elevation of firearms' status within the army:

Early development: In 1380 (the 13th year of Hongwu), the Ming government set the ratio of firearms to other traditional weapons in a unit of 100 soldiers (“凡军一百户,铳十,刀牌二十,弓箭三十,枪四十”——firearms 10%, shields and swords 20%, bows and arrows 30%, long spears 40%), showing that firearms had already begun to be integrated into the army’s arsenal.

Mid-development: By 1466 (the 2nd year of Chenghua), General Guo Deng proposed a ratio of firearm troops to bowmen and shield-bearers in infantry units, reflecting the growing importance of firearms among infantry(“用神铳手十,弓箭手十,刀牌手各五,药箭强弩手十,司神炮及舁火药者八,杂用者七”). According to records, “Out of the 100,000 soldiers in the capital garrison, 60% were firearm soldiers,”(“京军十万,火器手居其六”) further proving that the proportion of firearm troops had become quite high by then.

Later development: During the Jiajing period (1522–1566), the proportion of firearms in the army reached a new height. "Generally, for every ten soldiers, eight were trained in firearms and two in archery" (“大率军以十人为率,八人习火器,二人习弓矢”——firearms 80%, bows and arrows 20%), showing that by this time, firearms had almost become the primary combat weapon, while traditional archery had taken a secondary role.

The reason I emphasize Qi Jiguang is because, as a renowned general, he not only achieved brilliant victories in battle but also left behind detailed and rich documentation. I believe the military organization he recorded likely reflects the general structure of the Ming army at the time. He may have made adjustments based on this, but the overall situation remained unchanged.
Since Qi Jiguang's era (1528–1588) was not far from the fall of the Ming Dynasty and the Manchus' takeover of China (1644), I believe the structure of the Ming military described above accurately reflects the situation of the time.

As for your mention of "the trend of the Ming military's degradation," It's a very difficult question to answer.
The Ming army indeed suffered defeat after defeat in battles against the Manchu forces, despite seemingly possessing more advanced weaponry.
Another fact is that when the Ming army fought in small units (around a hundred soldiers), they were generally able to achieve decent results. However, in large-scale battles involving tens of thousands of troops, they were almost always defeated.
Why was this the case?
This question is also considered a very complex issue in Chinese historical research, involving factors such as the political environment of the Ming Dynasty and the command system of the frontier armies.

For example, there was the national policy of “governing the military with civil officials”(以文御武), which sought to limit the power of military generals by allowing civil officials with little military knowledge to command troops.
Then there was “Mutual Control Between Senior and Junior Officers” (大小相制), which divided the army into separate command structures that were not subordinate to one another. This made it difficult for the overall commander to direct other units, causing major coordination problems when multiple forces needed to face a common enemy. In some cases, soldiers were not even provided with timely pay, provisions, or weapons.

These measures were primarily aimed at preventing military coups or uprisings, but they obviously had the unintended effect of severely weakening the army’s combat effectiveness.

However, these issues are difficult to reflect in games, because if you only look at the equipment of the troops, the Ming army would certainly appear to be an extremely powerful force .

baconator wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 2:59 pm
Grateful for your time and enormous responses here. It appears the current army list may better reflect the earlier Ming Army than the period that is being covered. I would have to look over and start comparing it to the contemporary European army lists from FOG:R and see if I could get some ideas for the rework.

But I do have two further questions if you don't mind engaging:

(1) I could certainly change the current iteration of Jiading and superior "Kuijia Qibing" to replace "Bow" with "Carbine," + And I think the whole portion of troops who are essentially mounted gunners/light cannoneers can be depicted with some manner of "Dragoon" with RGs. However, I am still leaning on the side of keeping the regular "Qibing" to keep their "Bow*" both for the sake of cost and reflecting on Korean sources mentioning a significant presence of foreign cavalrymen such as the Mongols/Khorchins. Did the Ming arm such foreigners to the same standards mentioned in your sources? How successful were they if they did try?

Thank you again.

Many cavalrymen would have still been horse archers. Switching all to Carbine would be bizarre, given the extent of the evidence of Ming horse archers from the Wanli reign onwards. A compromise would be making them 50%bow-50% Carbine.

Those foreigners would have been retainers of the Ming officers. In particular, the Jiading of the Li clan were of Mongol extraction, but otherwise fought as Ming cavalrymen woudl do, except that they were of very high quality.

baconator wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 2:59 pm
(2) And I suppose this leads to the second part regarding Qi Jiguang. This is Qi Jiguang we are talking about; were subsequent Ming generals/military establishments able to maintain the same diligence and organization in order to keep such formations so heavily equipped with firearms, primarily "niaochong"s in this case? I do suspect the Ming military is the victim of pop culture history + its history undergoing serious crises (Tumu crisis) and collapsing to the Shun and Qing (perhaps much like the entire Korean historical memory of Joseon society in a way), but would it be safe to assume that the forces from places such as Liaodong did not completely reflect the trend of Ming military's degradation?

Thank you again.

There is in fact evidence that in spite of Qi Jiguang's efforts, arquebus use declined slightly between his dismissal and the Imjin War. There is also the problem that the Ming military was incredibly diverse, so what stands for some regions does not for all. Regarding the Imjin War in particular, Zhao Shizhen wrote in 1593 in a memorial:

More than a hundred thousand men and horse were sent to reinforce the Koreans in their land, and altogether [i.e., including the Koreans themselves] there were more than three hundred thousand [soldiers]. But the Japanese merely deployed three thousand Flying Mountain Island (Fei luan dao) arquebus units in the vanguard, and [these] isolated units
entered deeply, being unconcerned about our strength, withstanding our two countries. The entire strength of our two countries could not overcome these Japanese fighting with all their might, rushing forth like flames, striking like lightning, and then withdrawing calmly. Not only all of the leaders, but even all of the Japanese soldiers had no losses. The benefits of the arquebus (niao chong) in warfare can thus be clearly seen

He is clearly exaggerating, but the point stands. Besides, Swope has showed how in the final campaign of the Bozhou rebellion after the end of the Imjin War, the officals sent there emphazised musketry (and general firearm usage), but had to bring a contingent of surrendered Japanese arquebusiers, presumably because neither the skills nor the weapon were readily available in Guizhou.

In addition, we know that the Zhejiang infantry sent to Korea (organised following Qi's ideas) had a 20% proportion of matchlockmen, which were integrated in the unit, and not deployed in a separate corps as Qi prescribes in Jixiao Xinshu. This follows into my next point.

There are problems with using Jixiao Xinshu straight up as a model for general Ming armies is that it is prescriptive, not descriptive. Yes, the Qi Jia Jun were organised closely following the first edition of Jixiao Xinshu (rather, the book reflected his theories and experiences after training the Qi Jia Jun) and during his tenure in the North he reorganised the army to follow his reforms of Zhejiang. However, that does not mean that the gun ratios and actual practice followed them perfectly, especially after he was stripped of the highest command and sent to a discrete post in the South due to his association with Zhang Juzheng

Another thing that can be really modeled in the game are war carts, whose use was standardised by Qi Jiguang in the northern garrisons (he was not the first to use them, though) and which were actually used in the Imjin war, since war carts feature in the lists of items sent to Korea. Fundamentally, one of the most common northern infantry's modes of organization was centered on war carts from Qi Jiguang onwards to the fall of the Ming.

baconator wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 2:59 pm
(1) I could certainly change the current iteration of Jiading and superior "Kuijia Qibing" to replace "Bow" with "Carbine," + And I think the whole portion of troops who are essentially mounted gunners/light cannoneers can be depicted with some manner of "Dragoon" with RGs.

Regarding the weaponry of armored cavalry, I think this is a difficult issue to settle because, historically, cavalry often used a mix of weapons. For example, in the depiction of the Ming army’s recapture of Pyongyang in 1593, found in the painting “The Recapture of Pyongyang” (平壤夺还图), the Ming forces are shown bombarding the Seven Stars Gate with artillery. The weaponry of the Ming cavalry was quite diverse. Moreover, after nearly every decisive battle, the losing side would analyze lessons learned and implement reforms within their military, updating weapons and making reasonable adjustments to infantry and cavalry units in order to achieve victory in the next major conflict.

Take the Ming army as an example: After the defeat at the Battle of Lingbei(岭北), the Ming Dynasty increased the proportion of spearmen and shield-bearers among the infantry to counter the enemy’s heavy cavalry. Similarly, after the defeat at the Battle of Kuo Luan River(阔滦河), the Shenji Battalion (神机营), equipped with a large number of firearms, was created to combat the Tartar light cavalry.

During the Imjin War, the Ming initially deployed large numbers of cavalry. However, due to unfamiliarity with the Korean terrain and the tactics of the Japanese forces, the Ming army suffered significant losses. Following these setbacks, the Ming military quickly adjusted their strategies to better adapt to the situation.