Slitherine

Hello all. New to FoG, old hand at miniatures gaming, although I pretty much quit ancients towards the end of the WRG 7th era. I have not yet played or observed FoG so there I have a bit of uncertainty as to how the games shape up.

I have always loved the Dark Ages armies of Western Europe. I would like to build some 25mm armies for the period, but I am sort of stumped for whether to do 9th century or 6th. Basically I am looking at doing one of these two 'sets':

1) Sub Roman Britons + Saxons + Picts

or

2) Anglo-Danes + Vikings + Welsh (or Scots - or Irish)

I would ask the grognards out there to speculate how these would play, and how well balanced or flexible either set would be compared to another. I realize that asking which is 'better' or 'more fun' is stupid, so I will ask how they differ as sets - what type of battles they would offer.

Also, would an Early German army be stout and tough or just big and fat?

As you can see, I like my wargaming sort of Wagnerian.

I went hog wild several years ago when OG had a big sale and I have tons of Late Romans, Goths and Huns - perhaps it would be better to just get these painted and running? I just don't feel the same love as I do for the Albion types.

Thanks in advance to those who can help.

If you've already got the lead perhaps the Roman & Huns is a good way to go. Light Horse is extremely manouverable (as you'd expect) and Romans aren't far behind. It makes for a simpler expedition into FoG.

Out of the two triads, I think the second is good.

I think Vikings (naturally - look at my list) are good to excellent, although I've had no luck with them of late. Anglo-Danes are basically harder Vikings, and one of my opponents run Scots and they are the ones giving my Vikings a hard time.

I think Medium Infantry is a good way to go... especially spearmen, so maybe start with the Scots and move onwards from there.

Regards.

Ian

Skullzgrinda wrote:Hello all. New to FoG, old hand at miniatures gaming, although I pretty much quit ancients towards the end of the WRG 7th era. I have not yet played or observed FoG so there I have a bit of uncertainty as to how the games shape up.

I have always loved the Dark Ages armies of Western Europe. I would like to build some 25mm armies for the period, but I am sort of stumped for whether to do 9th century or 6th. Basically I am looking at doing one of these two 'sets':

1) Sub Roman Britons + Saxons + Picts

or

2) Anglo-Danes + Vikings + Welsh (or Scots - or Irish)

I would ask the grognards out there to speculate how these would play, and how well balanced or flexible either set would be compared to another. I realize that asking which is 'better' or 'more fun' is stupid, so I will ask how they differ as sets - what type of battles they would offer.

Also, would an Early German army be stout and tough or just big and fat?

As you can see, I like my wargaming sort of Wagnerian.

I went hog wild several years ago when OG had a big sale and I have tons of Late Romans, Goths and Huns - perhaps it would be better to just get these painted and running? I just don't feel the same love as I do for the Albion types.

Thanks in advance to those who can help.

The difference between these two sets is that the earlier set will have more 'impact foot' (think irregular heavy throwing weapons etc) and the later will have more 'offensive spearmen' (think 'long thrusting spear') and a bit more armour about. The initial charge of impact foot is a fierce one and you have a reasonable chance of a breakthrough. The spearmen aren't quite so fierce in the charge but, as long as they keep steady, will be good in a continuing melee and are better against mounted.

Early Germans are very much impact foot too (not really much different to early saxon)

All these armies in period will give good infantry battles. If you like the idea of close quarter combat with mass carnage you'll enjoy them. They may struggle a bit with terrain - for which they'll ideally need some medium foot (think 'LMI'). The impact foot armies will give a bit more of a white knuckle ride. The reason being that there's a morale penalty for being beaten by impact foot in the initail charge. Consequently when impact foot collide things can move quickly and unpredictably.

What I'd suggest avoiding, at least initially, is pitching these guys against very manouverable enemies. It can be a frustrating game trying to catch an enemy that's just out of reach and showering you with arrows.

Ian - thanks for your reply!

Having thought about it a bit longer I have come to the conclusion that you suggest - roll with what I have for now which is a tub of paid for, ready to clean prime and paint Late Romans, Huns and Goths.

I was getting all hot and bothered to do 9th century England, having started reading the Bernard Cornwell series and that in turn keying off memories of Rosemary Sutcliff and others who wrote very enjoyable historical novels for this period. To sate myself at least a little bit, I ordered about 40 each Viking and Saxon figures to base individually for Strandhogg - Gripping Beast, Crusader and Essex. The exchange rate and postage almost killed me outright with sticker shock. There is no way I am going to pay out for 3 new 25mm armies in the current circumstances. This is not a shot at the manufacturers either - it is the reality of shipping costs and the weak American neodollar.

The Folkwandering stuff I have in hand. Volsungsaga it shall be, with Atli, Brynhild, Sigurd and all. Alfred will just have to be patient.

Looking at the list for the Foederate Romans, do you advise keeping all of the Huns as light cav then and not straight cavalry?

Graham - thanks for your reply as well!

Translating the troop types into WRG7speak was ENORMOUSLY helpful. It really helped straighten out a very confusing mix of options.

I have decided to go with the figures in hand, and start with a Dominate or Foederate Roman army. The lead is already in hand, and the options for respectable numbers of what look like solid MI and cav support should offer a better game. Certainly, it will give me more working knowledge to sort out whether to do a 6th or 9th century option later, or simply to expand on the Late Roman options.

I heard you loud and clear about being peppered with arrows by an elusive enemy. My last army was Skythian.

Now, anyone near Jackson Mississippi interested in 25mm FoG?

Skullzgrinda wrote:Ian - thanks for your reply!

Having thought about it a bit longer I have come to the conclusion that you suggest - roll with what I have for now which is a tub of paid for, ready to clean prime and paint Late Romans, Huns and Goths.

I was getting all hot and bothered to do 9th century England, having started reading the Bernard Cornwell series and that in turn keying off memories of Rosemary Sutcliff and others who wrote very enjoyable historical novels for this period. To sate myself at least a little bit, I ordered about 40 each Viking and Saxon figures to base individually for Strandhogg - Gripping Beast, Crusader and Essex. The exchange rate and postage almost killed me outright with sticker shock. There is no way I am going to pay out for 3 new 25mm armies in the current circumstances. This is not a shot at the manufacturers either - it is the reality of shipping costs and the weak American neodollar.

The Folkwandering stuff I have in hand. Volsungsaga it shall be, with Atli, Brynhild, Sigurd and all. Alfred will just have to be patient.

Looking at the list for the Foederate Romans, do you advise keeping all of the Huns as light cav then and not straight cavalry?

I'm personally more into 'light horse'. Bang for buck, cavalry shoot better, but are also slower and less able to squeeze through small spaces, so are more likely to get into trouble. Light horse can also evade in any circumstances where cavalry are restricted and (especially as a new player) can get into a situation which is 'less than desirable' fairly quickly and easily.

I'm not really familiar with the Foederate Romans - more familiar with Dominate (as I run Palmyrans which are between Principate and Dominate so browse that list from time to time).

The Dom Rom Swarm has been bandied about quite a bit so you should be able to get some thread searches about how to use them.

Also if you look through the threads you will see that I'm not particularly anal about having the exact right troops for the exact right period etc, so baring that in mind, here is what I'd suggest:

Why don't you build a cross-over Dominate Roman/Foederate Roman. If you go with a fair amount of Auxilliaries (LHI = Medium Infantry/Drilled/Superior/Armoured/-/Light Spear/Swordsmen in BG's of 4) and a minimum of Legionaries (HI = Heavy Infantry/Drilled/Average/Armoured/-/Impact Foot/Swordsmen in BG's of 6) and max out the rest of the Barbarian types you'll be a good way along to a Foederate Roman army as well.

The Foederate Romans (I believe) are a harder army to use. There are limitations on how many 'Quality Romans' you can have. The 'Quality Romans' turn on a dime, and are very forgiving. So, after you've had a few games of FoG with the 'I can do anything, I'm drilled and I'm Roman' Auxillaries you'll be more ready to deal with the more difficult task of Heavy Infantry Barbarians who manouver very well... about as well as a brick wall manouvers. You'll quickly notice the differences, but the learning curve will be less steep as you'll already have some of the mechanics of FoG under your belt.

Once you've done that, then you're on your way to Gotterdamerung with Saxon types and bob's your uncle - we'll see you winning the Worlds with a one dimentional Saxon army... and I'll expect full credit for your success

Feel free to ask anything else. I'll throw together a list if you like, but as others have advised in other threads, maybe building a Dom Rom 'starter army'

Regards

Ian

My own Romano-British army doubles perfectly well as Foederate Roman (Gripping Beast figures). I haven't used it much as family commitments restrict my wargaming time.

The organisation I am currently trying out is a Front line of feoderate Foot (8s) backed up by 4 base BGs of Auxilia as Heavy foot. This is a very resilient formation as support and generals just behind the line in true Roman fashion (with the contact BGs but not fighting) keep them intact for a long while. The idea being that they soften up the better enemy line enough that when they break they have done enough damage for the fresh Auxilia to be able to finish them off.

Armorican allies provide a couple of units of Medium Foot for terrain, I use Equites Taifali for the one compulsory cavalry unit plus some Hun Light Horse (cavalry needs to be protected so costs more than the points budget allows). The final twist is a Visigoth Ally who goes on the table last. This has LF archers, Protected LS cavalry and Lancer cavalry. This has some capacity to maneuver but I haven't tried it yet. I can get 14 Battle Groups in 700 points so the army is quite stubborn.

I keep looking at the Romano-British but haven't cracked a good way of organising them yet. Having the Driled foot in 6s makes it more expensive to do the double line trick with Saxon Foederate/Allies. I am currently experimenting with Roman Allies (Using the Usurper Constantine III as CinC with Gerontius as the Roman Ally commanding the Field Army units - including Superior Armoured Legions for hitting power - and Saxon allies representing the Franks of Edobinchus).

No need to buy extra figures. You could also use them for Merovingian Frankish for a dark age army if you want something a little different. The Gallo-Romans will still look fairly Roman and the Foederate types will be fine as the Frankish troops. A morph into Early Byzantine is within reach, though the minima for Roman cavalry seem high for some of Belisarius' campaigns and maxima for 'Barbarian' troops on the low side. You could also go for Late Principate with the figures for the armies of Claudius Gothicus and Aurelian. Lots of Superior Legionaries which can chew their way through most things, apart from Pikes and Heavily Armoured Knights.

These all look like good options. The only thing Dominate and Feoderate armies have against them is a complete lack of Firepower. Only 4 bases of LF. However I have used Principate in 15 mm and the LF units just seem like easy break points for the enemy so am thinking of dropping them entirely. When you are running armoured foot there is little need to provide a screen against shooters.

Hope this helps.

Paul

I am finding that a 5 gallon tub holds a whole lot of minis. I think that I will be able to do the starter armies for 2 Foederate Roman armies. I am short of legionaires, and have a surplus of auxillia for the Dominate boys. Foederate should work out just right though. I have been collecting these minis in drabs and spurts for about 25 years. Well past time they went into the field.

Good advice from all of you - thanks!

By the very late period there is very little difference in appearance between the Legions and Auxilia. They all carry the same big oval shield, literature suggests they had all given up metal armour by then and the Notitia Dignitatum (cheaply reproduced in Phil Barker's 'Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome') gives all the shield patterns you will ever need; so your Auxilia figures will be fine for your Legions.

In battle they were used in exactly the same way. Look at the accounts of the Battles of the period and you will not see any tactical difference, only qualitative differences between units which spans both types. This is why I favour the 'Heavy Foot' classification.

Some Rule sets don't even bother to distinguish the two types on the table.

The main advantage of Dominate over Foederate Legions is thet they still get the Armoured/Skilled Sword/Impact Foot while the Foederates are all Light Spear and no skilled sword option.

paulburton wrote:By the very late period there is very little difference in appearance between the Legions and Auxilia. They all carry the same big oval shield, literature suggests they had all given up metal armour by then and the Notitia Dignitatum (cheaply reproduced in Phil Barker's 'Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome') gives all the shield patterns you will ever need; so your Auxilia figures will be fine for your Legions.

Or online here - http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... terns.html

Thank you for that link, Nik. I have the old WRG book but seeing this laid out in color is impressive, and shows a variety of rich color that is surprising.

I dug up some interesting reenactors sites trying to find clothing colors for the Folk Wandering Period and Dark Ages. More variety here than I thought.

http://www.nordicus.ch/nordicusprojects.html

http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikdyes.html

http://www.ulfhednar.org/

http://www.museedestempsbarbares.fr/index.html

http://www.chasuari.de./

http://www.mercwars.com/tunic.shtml