Slitherine

I wrote a negative review on steam (that is below) and the developer said that I should post it on the forums so that they can better discuss.

Since I am making this post a couple of days later and have more room just wanted to give some more details.

• Was playing Rostov in Northern Russia
• Got declared on by the Vespians and then the Moldovans
• What I meant by loyalty was loyalty of characters not regions, I have an authority thing called Nobility Sedition and I have no idea how to solve it.
• I just like the game. This review is more-so that I can't recommend the game. I think the quotes (in the first line) now are a little silly.
• After I get some comments and discussion I will edit the review if my opinion has changed on anything.

REVIEW AS IT IS ON STEAM
This sounds counterintuitive but this review doesn’t mean I hate the game.

Actually I “like” the game, it brings many unique mechanics that I love and I am glad other publishing studios are making grand strategy games. What this review means is that I personally can’t recommend the game even for people who like complex slow games like this as in my opinion some of the mechanics are so unfun that they take away from the experience.

My main gripes boil down to War, Territory Control, Loyalty, and Regional Decision.

War. There is a 10 turn timer before a peace negotiation can even begin. This means that if you take over half of their country as well as wipe their army by turn 5 and just want to white peace this is impossible. I can only describe this as simultaneously boring and infuriating. This ties into my other biggest gripe with the game.

Territory Control. So you took over half of your opponent's country. Awesome! Now for the next 5 turns you will have to wait while these territories sap your Authority. Putting you in a worse position than when you started. I completely understand how this prevents blobbing but it also prevents having fun, you have to baby these provinces you never even wanted just because someone declared war on you.

Loyalty. Truthfully I am just complaining because I don’t understand it, I don’t even know how I can increase loyalty so let me know.

Regional Decision. I like Regional Decisions, I don’t like the thought of spending 5-10 minutes min-maxing the advanced screen to get what I want.

There are solutions to these issues already present in the game. You can constantly send gifts to your neighbors to try and prevent war. You can probably do some weird Vassal tricks to make occupying easier and I think that there are some decisions that can let you give land away. I don’t know but there has to be some crazy strats for loyalty. My main argument is that these make an already slow game unbearable where sometimes you face a problem that you know the solution of, have the resources to solve but still feel confined to the system.

How I would personally fix these issues

War:

- Before anything, have a prompt that your relationship with your neighbors is bad and you should sign a nonaggression pact with them. They can then demand lots of your money for you wanting to be in peace.
- Before war is declared, have the enemy demand their clauses. You can give them what they want or find some other way (money, metal, manpower) for them to accept the treaty. No matter what though you transfer some of your legacy to them.
- Once war starts, have it like most other strategy games where the length of the war is simply a modifier that becomes closer to 0 over time.

Territory Control:

- Always have the option to release land that you own. They can turn back into neutral/wild states.
- Have an option to do “bread and circus”. You spend LOTS of money to basically bribe them into not being dissatisfied and affect Authority.
- Have an option to do “Martial Law”. It is one further than simply putting units on the province. They literally occupy the province and can’t leave until it is pacified. Depending on the loyalty of the troops or commander they might even form their own country. When they are occupying you don’t get any resources but you also don’t get Authority penalty.

Loyalty:

- Make it more obvious how to fix Loyalty? Put it into the tutorial?

Regional Decision:

- Maybe you could have the nobles at court work toward these decisions?
- Have the option to play a Decision you don’t own for 5 times the cost?



I hope that this review helps someone. I hope that even if they don’t implement my exact solution they find some way to address these grievances; even if it is just adding a section in the manual called “Frequent Pitfalls”.

If you love the game and think I am a stupid poppy head, tell me how you deal with my problems so I can pick the game up again!

OK so I totally love this game, including the backstabbing nobles

Nightelf wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 4:40 pm I wrote a negative review on steam (that is below) and the developer said that I should post it on the forums so that they can better discuss.

Since I am making this post a couple of days later and have more room just wanted to give some more details.

• Was playing Rostov in Northern Russia

So you love a challenge, but are not suicidal as in playing 1 region minor in Ireland or Byzant.

[*]Got declared on by the Vespians and then the Moldovans

What can you expect from such uncivilized tribes.

[*]What I meant by loyalty was loyalty of characters not regions, I have an authority thing called Nobility Sedition and I have no idea how to solve it.
[*]I just like the game. This review is more-so that I can't recommend the game. I think the quotes (in the first line) now are a little silly.
[*]After I get some comments and discussion I will edit the review if my opinion has changed on anything.[/list]

REVIEW AS IT IS ON STEAM
This sounds counterintuitive but this review doesn’t mean I hate the game.

Actually I “like” the game, it brings many unique mechanics that I love and I am glad other publishing studios are making grand strategy games. What this review means is that I personally can’t recommend the game even for people who like complex slow games like this as in my opinion some of the mechanics are so unfun that they take away from the experience.

My main gripes boil down to War, Territory Control, Loyalty, and Regional Decision.

War. There is a 10 turn timer before a peace negotiation can even begin.

There is? as Fatimids it feel more like 25, those crusaders are a bit a pest.

This means that if you take over half of their country as well as wipe their army by turn 5 and just want to white peace this is impossible. I can only describe this as simultaneously boring and infuriating. This ties into my other biggest gripe with the game.

Hmm didn't notice it would be 10 turns as I just move on to the next region taking it or sieging, to get more warscore for "negotiations". Usually when they are down to a couple or regions or I siege the capital, they are about ready to sue for peace (was that really 10 turns??? I didn't notice).

Territory Control. So you took over half of your opponent's country. Awesome! Now for the next 5 turns you will have to wait while these territories sap your Authority. Putting you in a worse position than when you started. I completely understand how this prevents blobbing but it also prevents having fun, you have to baby these provinces you never even wanted just because someone declared war on you.

I can fully understand that you don't want certain regions. There are options, making a vassal our of them by RGD or liberate RGD. Part of the charm with this game is that you don't have total control, which was what pissed me somewhat off in Rome.
OK, I lied I want all the regions unless I move down into aging. Look at the bright point, you lose at max 4 auth a turn for being wildly over the limit ...

Loyalty. Truthfully I am just complaining because I don’t understand it, I don’t even know how I can increase loyalty so let me know.

Naturally nobles loyalty only goes one way, down, its worse for certain nations, like Seljuqs, don't remember if there is some extra penalty for Rus.
When you fire them, they got upset, whether from armies or provinces.
Mercenaries also might decrease loyalty of their commanders.
You improve loyalty by using Gift RGD (requires that they are governors) or building statues for them.
Some nation give improved loyalty when appointing.

Reducing risk of low loyalty:
Keep disloyal at court, but then you can't bribe them ...
Give useful nobles a province and bribe them.
Don't usually give disloyal(lower than 75) generals command of armies.
Appoint loyal general as palace guard commander.
Have a spy network at home.
Regularly play spy on nobles, on capital unless you want to know the loyalty of a specific governor.

Some more risky tactics, persecute them!!! they are witches or corrupt (this is true for all disloyal governors, but hard to prove). If it fails they get more disloyal or revolt/coup.

Regional Decision. I like Regional Decisions, I don’t like the thought of spending 5-10 minutes min-maxing the advanced screen to get what I want.

That is also very expensive, unless there is something you REALLY need now, don't adjust immediately, I think its 50 gold per click if you don't have it already.

There are solutions to these issues already present in the game. You can constantly send gifts to your neighbors to try and prevent war. You can probably do some weird Vassal tricks to make occupying easier and I think that there are some decisions that can let you give land away. I don’t know but there has to be some crazy strats for loyalty. My main argument is that these make an already slow game unbearable where sometimes you face a problem that you know the solution of, have the resources to solve but still feel confined to the system.

The need to weigh the options is the game, you can't have all, and must make some (very) drastic decisions.

How I would personally fix these issues

War:

- Before anything, have a prompt that your relationship with your neighbors is bad and you should sign a nonaggression pact with them. They can then demand lots of your money for you wanting to be in peace.

But you can already see the relations with your neighbours if you click political overlay (shift-5)
Also if you have claims or they have claims you can expect bad relations in the future.

- Before war is declared, have the enemy demand their clauses. You can give them what they want or find some other way (money, metal, manpower) for them to accept the treaty. No matter what though you transfer some of your legacy to them.

Usually the starting demands would be a bit ... overwhelming, give us half your country, remove your king, become our vassal and give us all your resources and disband 90% of your army. Hmm were did I hear did recently? Must have been a documentary from the middelages.

- Once war starts, have it like most other strategy games where the length of the war is simply a modifier that becomes closer to 0 over time.

There is a war weariness that affect the duration, which is somewhat dependent on your losses.

Territory Control:

- Always have the option to release land that you own. They can turn back into neutral/wild states.
- Have an option to do “bread and circus”. You spend LOTS of money to basically bribe them into not being dissatisfied and affect Authority.
- Have an option to do “Martial Law”. It is one further than simply putting units on the province. They literally occupy the province and can’t leave until it is pacified. Depending on the loyalty of the troops or commander they might even form their own country. When they are occupying you don’t get any resources but you also don’t get Authority penalty.

There are RGD for the most of these, but they are limited supply.
When a region which you want to keep is deeply illoyal there are several problems with it.
- There are too many heretic, unbelievers or pagans. See manual for methods, like conversions, forced conversions, leaders, armies.
- They are too far from your capital, relocate capital, build another capital if possible.
so they are heretic unbelievers, living far from the capital!
Build stewardship and piety buildings, governor with good starts, some buildings have events that help.
In case they are revolting, there wont be so many revolting peasants once you run your army over them, you did note some of the generals have some ... interesting stats?
Exact mechanics are in the manual.

Loyalty:

- Make it more obvious how to fix Loyalty? Put it into the tutorial?

Unfortunately not all loyalty can be fixed its a sad fact of live. Just keep your generals loyal, then the governors, the heir is optional ...

Regional Decision:

- Maybe you could have the nobles at court work toward these decisions?
- Have the option to play a Decision you don’t own for 5 times the cost?



I hope that this review helps someone. I hope that even if they don’t implement my exact solution they find some way to address these grievances; even if it is just adding a section in the manual called “Frequent Pitfalls”.

If you love the game and think I am a stupid poppy head, tell me how you deal with my problems so I can pick the game up again!

OK I need to try Rostov, and you should try some easy nation, turn off Norman invasion and play either England or France, HRE is usually also easy, but they have too many vassals and that should give another star in difficulty.

I will chime in and say that I am not aware of any 10 turn war minimum. What I am aware of is a 10 turn enforced peace with any nation you were just at war with. Some nations are more fatalistic in their view of peace negotiations. If you want to end a war, then fight a few skirmishes, maybe take a small region, and wait it out a few turns before settling a white peace. OR be aggressive and kick their a$$ as hard and fast as you can, and get to terms quickly...or just take them over completely and the war ends immediately!

You are correct about occupying enemy factions are a net loss of authority over time depending on the situation. Which is why my typical thought is to go all in and take them out (or bite off a whole province if a larger faction), or just skirmish and win a few battles then settle.

Surt discussed loyalty pretty well, but yes there are RGD's to gain loyalty with them, and others used to help get rid of disloyal characters. My thoughts have been to put disloyal governors (with solid AMP) in highly loyal provinces, and highly loyal governors for disloyal provinces. Putting a disloyal character ( less than 50 in particular) of a strong army and you are asking for trouble. Keep other disloyal members at court and make sure to keep a small army in your capital under a loyal general. This by itself will help prevent coups in a significantly.

But it's important to remember that a coup isn't necessarily a big deal...and in some cases it can be a welcome event. There are some family lines that perhaps spent too much time with their cousins, and some fresh blood can help give a real boost. There are consequences with legacy with this, but again there could be an overall again for allowing a coup to occur.

And finally, as Surt suggests, go back and try a faction that is noob friendly like France, England, or Scotland (keep the Norman invasion off) once you have considered some of these responses.

It seems like most of the gripes that I had with how the war system works had to do with fighting against Tribes or hordes rather than other developed countries. I didn't think there was a different in the peace negotiations of Hordes vs other governments but I will have to test and see. I will have to take your guy's advice in account with somewhere more developed and see if that changes my opinions.

Do you guys have any hotkey recommendation for diplomacy in general? Going from one country to the next for me at least is always a pain.

There is actually another way to shed regions, in occupied regions with an army that moves out you can abandon region, doesn't help your war score though and so might lengthen the war.

I agree with many of your points. I have tried playing as the Byzantine Empire and it is ridiculous. I love a challenge, but playing the Eastern Roman Empire is not even fun. More like getting a root canal. I have played for over a hundred hours hoping that I could eventually succeed at restoring the empire, and all I did was fight rebellion after rebellion punctuated by civil wars. There is little (or no) chance of expanding the empire like Basil II who died roughly 25 years before the start date of the game. So I know the history of the Eastern Roman Empire very well, and I understand the instability of the time period. BUT playing a game should allow the player to CHANGE history. I even played on the "easy" setting to see if Byzantium could survive. Not a chance. The game needs to have a way of changing loyalty in the provinces explained clearly (if it even exists). The developers need to include a mechanism that allows players to use their money to purchase buildings rather than having to wait for ridiculously long building times. Another thought would be to allow Empires to move populations around (as the Eastern Roman Empire did on numerous occasions historically). Also there is no mechanism to allow you to appoint LOYAL peers from a pool of candidates. You are stuck with what you get initially. Dynasty mechanics are also very weak. You can't change who your heir is for example. Manuel I was John II's youngest son, not his eldest (surviving that is). I really like this game, but it does need a lot of work. A modding tutorial is also very necessary. Opening the editor is extremely frustrating because there aren't any instructions on how to use it. This game has the potential to be one of the best Medieval Strategy Games out there, but not without a lot of modifications.

Sorry if I did not respond quickly; things are a bit hectic. Are there any questions left unanswered right now? I'll check this forum again tomorrow morning.

I can't find your review on Steam. Can you remind me when you posted it? Thanks.

Pocus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:43 pm Sorry if I did not respond quickly; things are a bit hectic. Are there any questions left unanswered right now? I'll check this forum again tomorrow morning.

Lol I am sure launching a game like this has been hectic. I don't think there have been any specific questions right now. I have dealt with a lot of my issues right now but want to give it more time before I edit my review.

Pocus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:43 pm I can't find your review on Steam. Can you remind me when you posted it? Thanks.

My review is also in the first Message on this board under REVIEW AS IT IS ON STEAM (The start of my message here is my foreward/things I have changed). On steam though it is under the name Nightelflevel50.
Not a brag (it is) but if you just sort by most helpful of all time you should see it very quickly. It was posted on June 9th.

For Gripes I have had so far I think the most general problem has been how the game communicates its mechanics. Because the game has unique mechanics how the game communicates these concepts and ideas makes it difficult to properly understand what is going on. There have been times (Like with Sedition from Nobles, the war counter, loyalty in nobles) that I felt it wasn't communicated well enough in either the game or the Manual (which I heavily referred to though not read cover to cover). I think this is a concept I will make another forum post about at some point, again when I have more experience in the game.

Nightelf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:17 am (Like with Sedition from Nobles, the war counter, loyalty in nobles) that I felt it wasn't communicated well enough in either the game or the Manual (which I heavily referred to though not read cover to cover).

Yeah sedition isn't mentioned at all in the manual. There are a few things I've come across like that in game that when I've searched the manual, there is no reference to them.

JonJonJon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:58 am

Nightelf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:17 am (Like with Sedition from Nobles, the war counter, loyalty in nobles) that I felt it wasn't communicated well enough in either the game or the Manual (which I heavily referred to though not read cover to cover).

Yeah sedition isn't mentioned at all in the manual. There are a few things I've come across like that in game that when I've searched the manual, there is no reference to them.

Actually it is mentioned, just not directly. Your point is still valid, but you can find mention of it in 9.1.2 in the last paragraph.

choppinlt wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:26 pm

JonJonJon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:58 am

Nightelf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:17 am (Like with Sedition from Nobles, the war counter, loyalty in nobles) that I felt it wasn't communicated well enough in either the game or the Manual (which I heavily referred to though not read cover to cover).

Yeah sedition isn't mentioned at all in the manual. There are a few things I've come across like that in game that when I've searched the manual, there is no reference to them.

Actually it is mentioned, just not directly. Your point is still valid, but you can find mention of it in 9.1.2 in the last paragraph.

Chop, are you reading the manual??? isn't that cheating? Tell me if you find something interesting though.

I have to get a leg up on my competition somehow! Seriously though, if I can't find a solid reference quickly from the glossary I just pull the trusty key word search trick on the pdf.

Sedition from Nobles is indeed significant. It's unfortunate that we did not communicate enough about it, including its real purpose, which is to slow down Authority gains when moving from 50 toward 100. I'll make a note about it. It's not only the manual that is light on this, but I don't think it is mentioned in the in-game help or tooltips either (or at least not explained; it is mentioned without any explanation in the Authority tooltip).