Slitherine

Hi!
I realize that it might be too late into the game's development (if I am not mistaken it will receive no more DLCs) so it might be too little too late but I've noticed some historical inaccuracies in Teutonic Orders army lists, particularly in the 1380-1449 AD list and thought about giving some feedback supported with sources. Maybe it will at least be useful for some modder or creating new scenarios (heck maybe I will make one too)

But to the point. In the 1380-1449 AD list, the Teutonic Army list has Men-at-Arms available which I presume are supposed to represent the secular knights levied on to fight in accordance to the feudal law. This is accurate, land banners constituted the majority of Teutonic Forces in most major battles like in the Battle of Grunwald. However, those units are purely knightly lancers while there should be 50% crossbowmen 50% lancers just like Polish Knights&Strzelcy. it is believed that both Polish and Teutonic forces were organized in this way already during the Battle of Płowce in 1331
(Sources: Płowce 1331 Piotr Strzyż Warszawa 2009, Grunwald 1410 Andrzej Nadolski Warszawa 2003 Banderia Prutenorum Jan Długosz, )

Another issue from the 1380-1449 AD list is the baltic levies. Although they can be justified for the earlier list I don't see how they fit into the 1380-1449 AD. They should be replaced by town militias represented by pavisier and crossbowmen and maybe some defensive spearmen. The amount of infantry in the Teutonic Lists should be reduced in general. In all of the open battles, the Order took part in before 1454 their forces consisted overwhelmingly of cavalry. Battles corresponding to the list like Grunwald or Koronowo were purely cavalry battles.
(Sources: Grunwald 1410, Andrzej Nadolski Warszawa 2003 Koronowo 1410, Piotr Derdej Warszawa 2004)

Light Archers, again justifiable for the 1320-1339 AD but not for 1380-1449 AD and 1450-1500 AD. They should be replaced by light crossbowmen The same can be said about the corresponding Polish lists of 1386-1454 AD and 1455-1500 AD. At the time in the region, crossbows dominated. Poles returned to the use of bows but only at the beginning of the XVI century and only in the cavalry.

Cavalry and Light Javelin Horse The Cavalry I can somewhat understand, let's say they represent the forces levied from eastern commanderies, particularly from the Prussian(Pruthenian) population which indeed fought using Eastern style equipment which was reflected in sources usually with the phrase cum armis pruthenicalibus. In fact, during the Battle of Grunwald, Polish knights mistook such forces for their Lithuanian allies. However in that case they should be changed to armored cavalry while retaining the light spear and swordsmen capabilities.
But when it comes to Light Javelin Horse... they should be removed. There is no place for them in this list or any Teutonic List for that matter.

I understand that those changes are probably not going to happen but maybe someone will find it useful for some kind of RP campaign.

Very interesting. The later lists were extrapolated from the earlier list, and I am happy to have more information to make the later lists more distinct and accurate.

There is good chance of these changes appearing in a future update. (Not soon)

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 3:44 pm Very interesting. The later lists were extrapolated from the earlier list, and I am happy to have more information to make the later lists more distinct and accurate.

And I am happy some of the info I dug out may be useful. I leave more suggestions regarding the Teutonic and Polish lists, maybe you'll find some worth implementing.

Teutonic Order 1380-1449
Municipal banners Among the troops of the Teutonic Order, apart from banners recruited from the lands (commandries) and mercenaries, there were also banners raised by the largest cities of the Teutonic state. For example, in the case of the Battle of Grunwald 1410 out of a total of 51 banners 11 of them were mobilized by the cities and towns. They were fighting on horseback and although had some knights in them were mostly recruited from the wealthier townspeople. This could justify representing them as lancers instead of knightly lancers similar to a Polish unit from the 1454-1500 AD list. Now whether to make them 50/50 lancers and crossbowmen (more historically accurate) or 100% lancers I leave it to you. There may be some balancing reasons for choosing one option over the other.

Polish 1320-1385 and 1386-1454 This list has access to wagon forts (laagers) however there is no evidence of Poles using them before the XV century. It seems it only became common in the region during and after the Hussite Wars. It can be somewhat justified for the Teutonic Order 1380-1449 since they defended their camp using wagons in the last phase of the Battle of Grunwald. But Poles only started employing wagon forts during the 13 Years War (1454-1466)

Billmen I struggle to think of any historical justification for such a unit. Generally speaking, Poles used predominantly cavalry armies till 1454, and the first instance of a Polish infantry unit armed only with polearms (other than earlier spears and shields) that I know of happened in the battle of Obertyn 1531 and those were foot strzelcy (arquebusiers) only rearmed with pole weapons for this specific battle.

Polish 1386-1454 Aside form removing archers both light and non-light the list contains Balkan Light Horse armed in Serbian/Rascian/Hussar manner (lance and big asymmetric shield). The first evidence of such a unit in Polish service however comes from 1498 (Archives of the Crown Treasury). So it is ok for the later Polish list but not this one. Source: Source: T. Grabarczyk Po racku, po husarsku, z przyprawą tatarską - początki przemian wojskowości polskiej u schyłku XV wieku Warsaw 2011 the article is also available here: https://www.academia.edu/18638421/Po_ra ... u_XV_wieku

Ok, that's it, I don't want to abuse your patience

Many thanks

VelesofNavia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:39 am But to the point. In the 1380-1449 AD list, the Teutonic Army list has Men-at-Arms available which I presume are supposed to represent the secular knights levied on to fight in accordance to the feudal law. This is accurate, land banners constituted the majority of Teutonic Forces in most major battles like in the Battle of Grunwald. However, those units are purely knightly lancers while there should be 50% crossbowmen 50% lancers just like Polish Knights&Strzelcy. it is believed that both Polish and Teutonic forces were organized in this way already during the Battle of Płowce in 1331
(Sources: Płowce 1331 Piotr Strzyż Warszawa 2009, Grunwald 1410 Andrzej Nadolski Warszawa 2003 Banderia Prutenorum Jan Długosz, )

What about the actual Order knights and sergeants? Should they also be 50:50 lancers and crossbowmen?

What about the Mercenary men-at-arms?

VelesofNavia wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:53 pm Teutonic Order 1380-1449
Municipal banners Among the troops of the Teutonic Order, apart from banners recruited from the lands (commandries) and mercenaries, there were also banners raised by the largest cities of the Teutonic state. For example, in the case of the Battle of Grunwald 1410 out of a total of 51 banners 11 of them were mobilized by the cities and towns. They were fighting on horseback and although had some knights in them were mostly recruited from the wealthier townspeople. This could justify representing them as lancers instead of knightly lancers similar to a Polish unit from the 1454-1500 AD list. Now whether to make them 50/50 lancers and crossbowmen (more historically accurate) or 100% lancers I leave it to you. There may be some balancing reasons for choosing one option over the other.

And also in the 1450-1500 list presumably?

Unfortunately, it looks like I would be unable to represent them properly as 50:50, because the only texture that actually shows the crossbow is the Polish texture. So I would need to represent them as "Lesser Men-at-Arms". (See the French lists from 1466 for examples). [Because it would be confusing if the Polish version showed the crossbow and the Teutonic Order version didn't]

(The 50:50 men-at-arms can work because we chose not to show the crossbows on those anyway, even on the Polish ones.)

Adding armoured infantry units to the late Teutonic lists is something I think should be considered. As the Polish Chronicler Jan Dlugosz stated, there were "well-armed men"(the term used by Dlugosz to describe around 6000 infantry) presented at the Battle of Tannenberg. It appeared that they were equipped as armored spearmen and crossbowmen. And it may be worth considering adding some halberdiers to the Teutonic lists after 1440 or 50, given the abundance of Hanseatic cities within the Order's territory and the rising popularity of polearms in the town militias of the late 15th century.

Probably. I can't really do any more till I get replies from VelesOfNavia regarding my queries.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 6:43 am Probably. I can't really do any more till I get replies from VelesOfNavia regarding my queries.

I'll contact him through his YouTube channel to inform him about this, hope he will reply.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:07 am
What about the actual Order knights and sergeants? Should they also be 50:50 lancers and crossbowmen?

What about the Mercenary men-at-arms?

Yes, the Order Knights and sergeants should also be 50:50 knightly lancers and crossbowmen.
While the Mercenary men-at-arms can be left untouched to show that foreign knights fought in different manner.

And also in the 1450-1500 list presumably?

Unfortunately, it looks like I would be unable to represent them properly as 50:50, because the only texture that actually shows the crossbow is the Polish texture. So I would need to represent them as "Lesser Men-at-Arms". (See the French lists from 1466 for examples). [Because it would be confusing if the Polish version showed the crossbow and the Teutonic Order version didn't]

By 1450-1500 Teutonic Order relied on professional (mercenary) Men-at-arms, also most major cities like Danzig/Gdańsk or Thorn/Toruń rebelled against them and swore allegiance to the Polish king anyway.

The idea of representing them as lesser men-at-arms is very fitting and I think historically accurate.

Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 6:18 pm Adding armoured infantry units to the late Teutonic lists is something I think should be considered. As the Polish Chronicler Jan Dlugosz stated, there were "well-armed men"(the term used by Dlugosz to describe around 6000 infantry) presented at the Battle of Tannenberg. It appeared that they were equipped as armored spearmen and crossbowmen. And it may be worth considering adding some halberdiers to the Teutonic lists after 1440 or 50, given the abundance of Hanseatic cities within the Order's territory and the rising popularity of polearms in the town militias of the late 15th century.

Agreed. Although at the time Teutons failed to actually use them in any major battle they defiantly intended to. Representing them either as units of crossbowmen and militias armed with polearms is a good idea. In the late lists (1450-1500) both the Kingdom of Poland and the Teutonic Order used Bohemian mercenary infantry armed with crossbows, pavises, polearms, and two-handed flails.

Sorry for the late answer. I just quit my old job and was moving to a different town. I kind of forgot I started this thread in all this chaos. Thanks, Dux Limitis for reaching out on YouTube. From now on I'll answer as quickly as possible.

There may be a hiatus while I am migrating my stuff onto a new machine, but I will get to this as soon as possible.

Are there still plans to update the Teutonic Order lists?

Rosedelio wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 10:40 pm Are there still plans to update the Teutonic Order lists?

In the fullness of time, yes. Do not hold your breath.

Here is my first draft of the revised 1380-1449 Teutonic Order list.

Note that I have cut down the infantry but still allowed a reasonable number. However, it is possible to field an entirely cavalry army.

Note also that the 50:50 Lance/XBow men-at-arms units are displayed in battle in the same wedge formation as the Poles. Like the Poles, we are unable to show the crossbowmen as separate models, and thought it would look stupid to have fully-armoured knight models animated as shooting crossbows, so the crossbow bolts shoot apparently from nowhere.

The 1450-1500 list is exactly the same except for using the later models for the men-at-arms.

For the earlier lists I have simply removed the Light Horse.

For the Poles, I have removed the Field Fortifications from the 1320-1385 and 1386-1454 lists, and I think made all the other proposed corrections.

Note that we may or may not be able to update the Grunwald Epic Battle scenario according to these changes.

No promises.

Good looking lists.