Slitherine

Stukas are so frail that I never use even only one, I only take fighter-bombers.
So, I NEVER take a stuka, as it means it will almost not fight: only on the cleared air zones,
or being overprotected and it means its a burden as its cost means added fighters and antiair.
At worst, maybe I would use it as a suicidal bait, never having experience, so I would only put recruits, never veterans.

I NEVER use fighter-bombers, unless I have got a surplus bunch of heroes to make them actually work (No Retaliation, Readiness, First Strike etc). They are inferior to all fighters they can face, cost a lot to replace whenever deployed against enemy fighters, and can't do much damage when you need to deal with heavy ground units. Pure fighters and pure bombers works the best for me.
The only case fighter-bombers and heavy fighter/interceptors can work is when the enemy has a lot of strategic bombers and few fighter escorts, but that's not a situation that happens a lot. So I just let my fighters and AA guns do their jobs, and Stukas can take care of the rest.

Then, how do you make the stukas survive? Each time I take some I regreat as at last one will die. Fighter-bombers (tactical bombers, not fighter class) do survive far more.
I mean, how to make the stukas survive without reloading the turn and make them more prudent (so they go only where artillery can already hit..).

For me, stukas are only usefull against civilian collums of french refugees or to punish a spanish village, they're not really military...

Well I also use fighter-bombers only when I got surplus heroes.

Stukas are excellent - you need them to kill enemy tanks - especially with the correct heroes.

But you are right - you have to protect them with a fighter.

Usually I first hunt down the enemy fighters and start then using the Stukas.

Or - as you yourself stated - you build a "trap" and lure enemy fighters into the range of your AA-guns.

Works like a charm for me

I have the exact opposite experience, especially on higher difficulty. Stukas are often the key element of my army composition, as they can solve problems no other unit can (until I get +1/+2 range artillery heroes).

How to use them more efficiently? There are a few ways:

1. Fewer overstrengthened Stukas can be better than more 10 strength ones. It reduces the number of fighters you need as escorts and amplifies their destructive power.
2. Focus attack on clustered targets (around a hex where you position a single fighter) and don't spread bombers around elsewhere. This way a single fighter can provide cover for them all. I know it's tempting to bomb the biggest tanks in sight, but concentrated fire on a small part of the frontline does a much better job than spreading the attacks around anyway.
3. Give the escorting fighter some good hero with extra air attack or Rapid Fire if possible, it further discourages the AI.
4. If you ever get Double Move heroes, give them to dive bombers, they are the best unit class to have this, as they can choose more remote targets and still fly back into cover.
5. Don't be too hellbent on destroying the enemy fighters altogether. If you have a few AA guns positioned well, you can usually let them roam about and just take them out when there's a chance. Especially until late 1944, enemy fighters will rarely choose to target bombers if they are escorted (SCW is the exception but that's until you get the Bf 109).

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 1:57 pm Then, how do you make the stukas survive? Each time I take some I regreat as at last one will die. Fighter-bombers (tactical bombers, not fighter class) do survive far more.
I mean, how to make the stukas survive without reloading the turn and make them more prudent (so they go only where artillery can already hit..).

For me, stukas are only usefull against civilian collums of french refugees or to punish a spanish village, they're not really military...

Give them fighter escorts, of course. I always run more fighters than bombers (and in AO you usually do need that composition), so most of the time I can spare some to run pure escort while the others are taking down enemy fighters. If you just let them go alone, then the AI will surely come and destroy them. Spreading air forces along the whole frontline is generally a bad idea, you don't provide enough firepower and don't have enough strength to take out enemy air presence, so a focused deployment solves much more problem, which includes "overstrength than number" strategy Tassadar mentioned above.

Okay, I tend to spread my forces and love the hybrid ways (loving the rangers in other games, I don't use the mage or clerics, I find it too easy), so I like using fighter-bombers anyway (nowaday the multirole Rafale is among the best fighter in the world for all the kind of missions it can actually do very well).

Even, I remember in the Stalingrad scenario the german command warns to spread the forces,
but only here I for once uterly concentrated my forces, despite it was really not historical (far less than usual)...

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 9:24 am Stukas are so frail that I never use even only one, I only take fighter-bombers.
So, I NEVER take a stuka, as it means it will almost not fight: only on the cleared air zones,
or being overprotected and it means its a burden as its cost means added fighters and antiair.
At worst, maybe I would use it as a suicidal bait, never having experience, so I would only put recruits, never veterans.

I rarely use them either. If you have a double move hero (as Tassadar mentioned) they can get back to cover or rebase to a safe field after they attack which can keep them safe. They're still not all that useful to me though, as generally I'll use air to turn a tank attack of 3/9 or 4/13 combat equation to an overrun of 0/10 or 0/15 respectively. The stuka's superior stats are not necessary to turn the 3/9 or 4/13 to an overrun of 0/10 or 0/15 (a fighter bomber can do the same and needs less attentiveness relative to fighter support).

Conclusion: You're right.

OP, what campaign are you playing? In the base campaign, stukas are my most valued unit - at least early on (when German tanks are nothing special). If you run into a Matilda II or Char B in 1940 or a T-34 in 1941, stukas are your best response. They've been that way in every Panzer General type game I've ever played. I was a little surprised they only cost 3 slots - I'd value them at 5 or more (better than pionieres or 150mm artillery).

Of course, you have to escort them and that might mean they don't see so much action until you have achieved air superiority. I am currently re-playing the vanilla campaign and am up to the gates of Moscow - I have four fighters, two stukas and one level bomber. After encirclement, perhaps the most important part of my strategy is securing airfields so my airforce is in range and can support my advance on the ground. I haven't bothered with a Me-110 this campaign - in PG type games, they are always the jack of all trades, master of none, mediocre as both a bomber and a fighter.

Historically, one would expect stukas to be obsolete in the west in the late war, as allied airpower was so strong and AD plentiful. But on the more contested eastern front, they are superb for taking down heavy Russian tanks or removing the annoying artillery or AT in the enemy rear that your ground troops can't reach.

econ21 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 11:07 pm Historically, one would expect stukas to be obsolete in the west in the late war, as allied airpower was so strong and AD plentiful. But on the more contested eastern front, they are superb for taking down heavy Russian tanks or removing the annoying artillery or AT in the enemy rear that your ground troops can't reach.

IIRC the Luftwaffe was still capable of achieving local air superiority on the eastern front when the Heer was going to launch a large-scale operation, at least until Kursk.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 1:57 pm Then, how do you make the stukas survive?

Achieve air supremancy and you can act free with them. Means wait 2-3 turns wipe out enemy aircraft andthen use them with fighter escort if you are unsure that all enemy planes are gone

depending on your heros you can make tactical bombers real strong, I.e. No Retaliation, Lightning Attack, Ignores Entrenchment (Rudel in mid-lategame)

or you can make them tougher, farm some defensive medals (dunkrik or Stalingard are nice missions to farm def 3), im not even sure if "vigilant" hero works on planes, i never tested it, but that might make them real real tough.

In "normal" playthroughs i use up to 3 tacs, 2 fighters and 1 fighterbomber and 2-4 strat bombers, when i play with aircraft

Tactical bombers are the strongest units in the game together with big fat tanks and overrun and 21cm artillery with lethal hero. But they are way more mobile and they can take out units behind the frontline. Or they can get rid of real terrifying units.

But as mentioned, the easiest way to kepp em alive is to just wait some turns, kill all enemy fighters or most of them, and there is no danger

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 12:32 am or you can make them tougher, farm some defensive medals (dunkrik or Stalingard are nice missions to farm def 3), im not even sure if "vigilant" hero works on planes, i never tested it, but that might make them real real tough.

Vigilant used to work, but was taken off several patches ago. not sure if that was intentional or a side effect of something.

sers,
Thomas

I am using Stukas until 1945. Makes no real sense to upgrade to anything, it only costs core slots and the units still cant defend vs fighters and wont do a much better jobs with bombing tanks und stuff.
Its one of the most iconic WW2 units and a must have.
You have already been given some nice tips, I still can add: just be patient. Dont try to win the map in the first 3-4 turns. AI is stupid and will waste all its aiforce within some turns. Keep your stukas close to your planes until you can be sure there is not much airpresence left.
Sometimes I do not even bomb with the stukas. Get a figher out, place some level bombers and stukas around him and AI will try to attack the bombers and receive heavy losses.

I am always using one fighterbomber for one. ME 110 is also an iconic units

BarbarianHunter wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 6:10 pmIf you have a double move hero (as Tassadar mentioned) they can get back to cover or rebase to a safe field after they attack which can keep them safe.

Yes, that's what I would do, but it does need a heroe: so for me stukas are generally not good.

econ21 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 11:07 pmIf you run into a Matilda II or Char B in 1940 or a T-34 in 1941, stukas are your best response.

Yup, without stukas, against tank monsters, I try to neutralize them with strategic bomber while waiting for encircle them, then bring my best anti-tank, it's not fast.

I used strategic bombers to counter monster tanks a lot in PzC and Panzer General type games. Deplete their ammo and suppress them to make them retreat and surrender. You can still do that in PzC2 but it seems a little bit less effective. Units resupply more easily (unless encircled), you have to do damage to a unit to make it retreat and units can retreat more than one hex, going through friendly units.

I heavily rely on Stukas to deal with Maltida and KV series early. You can't do much in 1941, your ground force (except rarely heavy arty) can't even scratch them. Later on i usually concentrate all bombers in one clutch to make breakthrough and easier escort. But anyway, you must achieve air superiority before using general CAS properly. Some first turns should about luring enemy fighters to camouflage AA kill field

"Herr-Stuka"... Mein Herr!!!:
Stuka's are essential... to achieve any real-relevant victory!. Yes!.. they are frail... or weak to enemy interceptors... so that's why they should always have fighter-escort to protect them to minimize their damage from attack. But!... with "Fighter-Escort"... they now at least have a chance to do their task with a very-good chance of success!.

Stuka's are terrific for destroying or disabling powerful tanks... you should at least have 2-Stuka's or even more... to work in unison together to render enemy armour to a near useless state or to even total annihilation. Stuka's are also "Excellent" for "Directly" attacking enemy "Anti-Air-Units"... the Enemy Anti-Air-Units... are not exceptionally proficient at deterring direct attacks on their Anti-Air-Units... so!... take advantage of this weakness!.

Now!... in situations such as the "Charles de-Gualle" Tank and other such other monstrosties... you may instead need to use "Heavy-Artillery" instead... in groups of 2 or 3 to vanquish the terrible beast... as in such situations... even "Stuka's"... "may-not" or "will-not" be able to render the offending Tank incapacitated!. Instead!!!... "Heavy-Powerful-Artillery" always works against even against the toughest Tank's!.
'